# Why is Mexico such a dump compared to the USA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795 "2015-12-08T05:39:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/61 "2015-12-14T13:29:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I’m puzzled by your description, because I’ve lived in ordinary middle-class houses in various cities and they weren’t “shitholes” in the least. These neighborhoods had working electricity, plumbing, internet, occasional cars and lots of motorcycles, etc. … > > India does tend to have more garbage and animals and homeless people on the streets, even in middle-class neighborhoods, than many other natiions in approximately the same economic bracket. Enclaves can be any size, even a single household. I’ve been to very nice houses in India, but once you get outside of them, the neighborhoods are shit. Yes, garbage, literal shit, animals, homeless, everywhere except in areas that are very wealthy and have the influence to make the cops drive out the shit. India is a liberal democracy, by the way. > [@CBEscapee](#): > > In contrary to the stereotypes Americans have of us, we are known to be very hard workers. We just play harder than you do. Americans’ stereotypes are based on immigrants, mostly, so the typical _campesino_ that we know isn’t reflective of the Mexican society at large. Actually, I’m not even sure where that stereotype comes from in the USA. The _campesinos_ all take hard, unpleasant jobs with no room for laziness at all. I’ve worked with Mexicans from all walks of life in Mexico for years and years, and beyond a doubt they are some of the hardest workers I’ve known, with an excellent eye for craftsmanship and quality. If the majority of Americans have a poor perception, then that’s just their loss. Oh, another thought: we often conflate “Mexican” with “Mexican American.” There’s a definite quasi-Mexican subculture in the USA that has some of the superficial aspects of Mexico but lacking any of the fine character. Like, say, you speak Spanish, live in a “Mexican” neighborhood, have a Mexican flag, but don’t know a damned thing about Mexico, are a gang-banger, and run around like an urban youth. That’s not at all reflective of Mexico, but since they call themselves “Mexican” it can be confusing to many of us. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/62 "2015-12-14T13:45:21Z")
Yeah, it’s easier to see the gang of assholes who like to stand on a corner and stare at passersby than the thousands and thousands of regular folk. Normal people don’t spend their time being obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/63 "2015-12-14T13:45:37Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It gets a lot more unequal than India. South Africa, for one, an either seem like a coastal California suburb or Zimbabwe. I’m sure that’s true but I was thinking more of comparisons between regions (states/provinces/etc.) than comparisons between individual people. It’s true South Africa has higher economic inequality than India (or for that matter almost any other country), but the between-province differences in HDI seem to be a bit smaller than India. The last breakdown of HDI by province I found was about ten years old (though the average South African HDI has not changed much since then), but it looks like while the wealthiest province is about on par with the wealthiest Indian state, the least developed province is better off than the least developed Indian states. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/64 "2015-12-14T23:32:50Z")
> [@theR](#): > > I wasn’t trying to say Mexicans don’t work hard, I was trying to say Mexican work ethic has nothing to do with being Protestant since most Mexicans are Catholic. I think you’ve got this backwards. The “[Protestant work ethic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic)” thing is a hoary old explanation for why America is such a successful country; it is majority Protestant, and Protestantism supposedly emphasizes the importance of hard work and thrift, while Catholicism does not. So in this worldview, Mexico is less successful precisely _because_ they’re mostly not Protestant. Of course, I suggest a large spoonful of salt with this theory. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/65 "2015-12-15T00:12:20Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Enclaves can be any size, even a single household. I’ve been to very nice houses in India, but once you get outside of them, the neighborhoods are shit. Yes, garbage, literal shit, animals, homeless, everywhere except in areas that are very wealthy and have the influence to make the cops drive out the shit. I guess it’s just a question of how one defines the term “absolute shithole”. In my book, it takes something more than dirty streets (and I repeat, I’ve also been in many non-wealthy neighborhoods in India where there **isn’t** shit and garbage and homeless people in the streets, although I agree that there tend to be stray cows and dogs almost everywhere) to make a place an “absolute shithole”. A locality that has working electricity, peaceful commerce, rule of law, little or no violent crime, children in schools, etc., does not qualify as an “absolute shithole” as far as I’m concerned, even if there’s dog and cow poop on the streets and some homeless people living on the sidewalk. Excrement, garbage and poverty all tend to be more readily visible in India than they are in some other nations that are at about the same level of development. But if you’re using “absolute shithole” just to characterize that kind of superficial dirtiness, you don’t really have any vocabulary left to describe the countries that are massively broken in ways that India is not. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/66 "2015-12-15T00:54:26Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I guess it’s just a question of how one defines the term “absolute shithole”. In my book, it takes something more than dirty streets (and I repeat, I’ve also been in many non-wealthy neighborhoods in India where there **isn’t** shit and garbage and homeless people in the streets, although I agree that there tend to be stray cows and dogs almost everywhere) to make a place an “absolute shithole”. > > A locality that has working electricity, peaceful commerce, rule of law, little or no violent crime, children in schools, etc., does not qualify as an “absolute shithole” as far as I’m concerned, even if there’s dog and cow poop on the streets and some homeless people living on the sidewalk. > > Excrement, garbage and poverty all tend to be more readily visible in India than they are in some other nations that are at about the same level of development. But if you’re using “absolute shithole” just to characterize that kind of superficial dirtiness, you don’t really have any vocabulary left to describe the countries that are massively broken in ways that India is not. I agree. I’ve been to maybe fifteen cities/communities across India, mostly on a hotel budget of $4.00 a night (so, not a lot of luxury resorts). Most of the places I went seemed pretty ordinary middle-incomey-- basic, but liveable. What India does have that you don’t get a lot of elsewhere is the massive extreme urban poverty, whcih is in-your-face in a way that rural poverty isn’t. But that wasn’t what really stuck with me most. And this was all ten years ago, when GDP per capita was less than half of what it is now. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/67 "2015-12-15T04:17:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I guess it’s just a question of how one defines the term “absolute shithole”. … > > Excrement, garbage and poverty all tend to be more readily visible in India than they are in some other nations that are at about the same level of development. But if you’re using “absolute shithole” just to characterize that kind of superficial dirtiness, you don’t really have any vocabulary left to describe the countries that are massively broken in ways that India is not. “Absolute shithole” is a visual descriptor and doesn’t mean anything about infrastructure. India has some of the best infrastructure in the world. Google results for “define shithole” seem to agree with my use. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/68 "2015-12-15T04:58:46Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > “Absolute shithole” is a visual descriptor and doesn’t mean anything about infrastructure. But this thread is about differences between and within countries in terms of much more than superficial visual descriptors. We’ve been discussing economy, poverty, crime, corruption, workforce skills, natural/environmental resources, etc.: in other words, overall development. So while I’m not quarrelling with your assessment that India happens to be the dirtiest-looking place you’ve ever visited, I think that opinion is only tangentially relevant to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/69 "2015-12-15T06:18:06Z")
I wonder about Mexico if it is partly due to the weather. When it gets hot its gets harder to work. Thats why in Mexico they has this “siesta” thing. I never heard of that here in the midwest. So I think there is more production in countries that have winter or at least cooler temperatures. It always amazed me how much scientific advancement came out of Russia. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/70 "2015-12-15T06:29:06Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I wonder about Mexico if it is partly due to the weather. When it gets hot its gets harder to work. Thats why in Mexico they has this “siesta” thing. I never heard of that here in the midwest. Oddly, studies have shown that a 30-40 minute nap in the late afternoon increases productivity. I did a couple projects with migrant farm workers, and those dudes work freaken _hard_. (and they get paid pretty well, piecework) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/71 "2015-12-15T06:38:56Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I wonder about Mexico if it is partly due to the weather. When it gets hot its gets harder to work. Thats why in Mexico they has this “siesta” thing. I never heard of that here in the midwest. So I think there is more production in countries that have winter or at least cooler temperatures. It always amazed me how much scientific advancement came out of Russia. Unlikely, given that productivity levels in the Mexican economy [diverge sharply for different economic sectors:](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/999ef49e-b5c6-11e3-81cb-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3uMv77lde) > [@](#): > > […] a new study by McKinsey, the consultancy, found the task is trickier than it looks: Mexico is a tale of two economies, and the gap between them is getting wider. > > There is the Mexico of the high-tech auto, aerospace and electronics sectors, sleek factories and slick multinationals, such as bakery giant Bimbo or cement firm Cemex. > > The other, far bigger economy, is home to the small and mid-sized companies that employ 80 per cent of workers but which struggle with the country’s tax and bureaucratic burdens. > > For mid and small-firms, therefore, innovation is often scarce and output low. Many firms exist in the vast informal sector, which Mr Zamora says employs six out of 10 Mexican workers and where productivity is 40 per cent lower than the formal one. > > While productivity at the modern enterprises has risen by 5.8 per cent a year since 1999, McKinsey found, those gains have been eroded by Mexico’s smallest firms, where it has fallen 6.5 per cent annually. In addition, the “traditional” sector of small and mid-sized firms is hiring faster than the top firms and shifting more labour to low-productivity work. I doubt that these different economic sectors in Mexico have been experiencing substantially different weather since 1999. And your hypothesis about Russia is kind of ludicrous. Yes, Russia has been home to many brilliant scientists and mathematicians, but it’s not exactly [known for high production](http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russians-named-europes-least-productive-workers/527669.html). > [@](#): > > Russians Named Europe’s Least Productive Workers > > The productivity of the Russian workforce is the lowest among European countries, according to a report issued Monday by the France-based international Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, or OECD. > > In Russia, labor productivity — measured by the gross domestic product valued in U.S. dollars divided by the total number of hours worked by the country’s workforce — stood at 25.9 in 2014. This is the lowest rate among all the European countries, worse than even crisis-hit Greece where the productivity rate stood at 36.2. > > Russia’s level of labor productivity is just over half the average European rate of 50. In the United States, the productivity level was 64 per hour last year, according to the OECD estimates. Luxembourg fared the best of all the surveyed countries with an estimated 95.9 per hour. (And by the way, as in many other warm countries, it’s customary to take siestas in Greece.) ---
**Author:** ![dude5568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@dude5568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude5568)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/72 "2015-12-15T07:48:39Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’ve spent a fair amount of time in both (as well as have lived nearly five years in various parts of Mexico). > > South Africa and Mexico have nothing on India. It’s hard to find a non-touristy area of India that’s not rich that’s not an absolute shithole. Given that, yes, I’ve been to very nice places in India as a tourist, but as a business traveller South Africa is just a fairly nice place (but be careful and don’t go to the townships), whereas India is just smelly and dirty and unpleasant in general. See now , that’s the issue here. Looking at a complex country like India which wasn’t even a country till 1947 through " western " , myopic lenses and forming an opinion and then plastering it all over these internet forums. People who live in the part of the planet you people call India have a very different idea of what " developed " and " developing " means than U.S , Western Europe . ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/73 "2015-12-15T09:00:45Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > I think you’ve got this backwards. The “[Protestant work ethic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic)” thing is a hoary old explanation for why America is such a successful country; it is majority Protestant, and Protestantism supposedly emphasizes the importance of hard work and thrift, while Catholicism does not. So in this worldview, Mexico is less successful precisely _because_ they’re mostly not Protestant. > > Of course, I suggest a large spoonful of salt with this theory. Actually, Catholicism does consider work very important, but it also considers the idea that there’s a link between your financial status and your piety, or the sister notion that by giving money to a church you’ll become rich, to be somewhere between extremely bogus and straight heretical. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2015, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/74 "2015-12-15T10:27:58Z")
Obviously, a common American nightmare is to cross the border to Mexico and, for whatever reason, is not allowed to go back. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/75 "2015-12-16T01:02:46Z")
> [@dude5568](#): > > See now , that’s the issue here. Looking at a complex country like India which wasn’t even a country till 1947 through " western " , myopic lenses and forming an opinion and then plastering it all over these internet forums. > > People who live in the part of the planet you people call India have a very different idea of what " developed " and " developing " means than U.S , Western Europe . This is an American-based forum, although we have a lot of international posters. Having lived and participated in the life of people in many different parts of the world tends to leave me a little bit more open-minded than my compatriots, and so I stick by my assessment of India. The vast majority of my highly-educated Indian coworkers tend to agree with my assessment and have no intention of returning to India if they can get assigned elsewhere. Sure, Detroit is better than Chennai, but that doesn’t mean Detroit is “good.” It just means there are worse places to be. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/76 "2015-12-16T02:16:57Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > The vast majority of my highly-educated Indian coworkers tend to agree with my assessment and have no intention of returning to India if they can get assigned elsewhere. :dubious: Of course, the opinions of Indians who have **already** chosen to live outside India are naturally going to be somewhat biased towards the view that living outside India is better than living within India. ---
**Author:** ![dude5568](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@dude5568](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dude5568)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/77 "2015-12-16T03:52:41Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > This is an American-based forum, although we have a lot of international posters. Having lived and participated in the life of people in many different parts of the world tends to leave me a little bit more open-minded than my compatriots, and so I stick by my assessment of India. The vast majority of my highly-educated Indian coworkers tend to agree with my assessment and have no intention of returning to India if they can get assigned elsewhere. > > Sure, Detroit is better than Chennai, but that doesn’t mean Detroit is “good.” It just means there are worse places to be. Your Indian coworkers have no desire to move back because they are making more money here. If they are highly educated as you said , they probably are physicians/engineers/IT professionals and compared to the same professions in India , they will of course make more money. It’s as simple as that. Try not to judge the country by going down a checklist and comparing it point by point with the US to see who comes ahead. It’s a different world out there which has been carved out of an entirely different mindset and set of principals. Some better , some worse but different. ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/78 "2015-12-16T04:36:46Z")
Mexico is a firmly upper middle income economy. The size of it’s economy is only second largest in all of Latin America after Brazil. Globally it ranks 15th, and is one of only 15 nations with GDP nominal of one trillion. The Mexican economy ranks above other developing and developed nations. Here is the list for end 2014. It will be updated in January after 2015 is over. > **[List of countries by GDP (nominal)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal))** > > Gross domestic product (GDP) is the market value of all final goods and services from a nation in a given year. Countries are sorted by nominal GDP estimates from financial and statistical institutions, which are calculated at market or government official exchange rates. Nominal GDP does not take into account differences in the cost of living in different countries, and the results can vary greatly from one year to another based on fluctuations in the exchange rates of the country's currenc... ---
**Author:** ![Nema98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d2c977/32.png) [@Nema98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nema98)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/79 "2015-12-16T04:37:54Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Um… what? What other countries are in **North** America? Yep and the Caribbean. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2015, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795/80 "2015-12-16T08:05:08Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I wonder about Mexico if it is partly due to the weather. When it gets hot its gets harder to work. Thats why in Mexico they has this “siesta” thing. I never heard of that here in the midwest. So I think there is more production in countries that have winter or at least cooler temperatures. It always amazed me how much scientific advancement came out of Russia. Because of elevation, some parts of Mexico have a cooler climate than Texas. Where _siesta_ is still practiced, things stay open later… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-mexico-such-a-dump-compared-to-the-usa/739795.md?page=5)