# Why is Monsanto evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2014, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658 "2014-11-26T11:03:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/103 "2014-12-04T21:00:58Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > “Terminator” seeds were never adopted for the market anywhere. I find it hard to believe that they’re under public discussion where you are. Yes, agreed, ignorance fought. I have only learned this today. > [@Ramira](#): > > …but roundup ready is used without GMO so it is not an objection that is correct, it is either ignorant from dubious sources or not honest. Well you have me stumped. Every source I find says that roundup ready seeds are the result of genetic engineering by scientists and came onto the market in 1996. It is possible that naturally occurring resistant plants were found and bred from by Monsanto and Dow: is that what you are saying? > [@Ramira](#): > > in fact the chemical component long predates the gmo usage, it is used since 1970, and there is long study of impacts. If the opposition is to this, it is an opposition to the chemical usages generally, and should have nothing to do with GMO. If you mean the development of glyphosate, no argument. However a plant has a far more intimate and complex interaction with insects and the soil than a single application of a herbicide, so IMHO we should pay attention to any side-effects. There may be none. Fine. > [@Ramira](#): > > How is that possible in a honest public discussion if there are no such seeds being commercialised? I do not think your pretended disinterest is a real position. Good point. The reality is that the public discussion has been suffused with fearful myths. Until now I thought terminator seeds were in use. Incidentally I can see a legitimate use for terminator GM seeds. There are crops such as pine trees which will energetically disperse their seed far beyond plantations and invade open landscapes. Where I live there is a constant battle to remove douglas fir (Oregan pine) wildings from mountainsides and high country land. A beautiful tree introduced 130 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/104 "2014-12-04T21:47:54Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Well you have me stumped. Every source I find says that roundup ready seeds are the result of genetic engineering by scientists and came onto the market in 1996 I understood **Ramira** to be saying that Roundup has been in use since long before the introduction of Roundup-Ready crops, and that objections to the herbicide should be considered separately from genetic modification technology. Roundup (glyphosate) has obviously come into more heavy use since GM crops resistant to it were developed. But glyphosate has been around since 1973 (long predating GM crops) and its effects on the environment have been studied for a long time as well. It’s certainly not innocuous, but it’s far less toxic than many other herbicides used in agriculture before it came along. For the purposes of this discussion, it’s worth noting that Monsanto’s patent on glyphosate ran out in 2000, and it now competes with multiple other companies in marketing it. And for what it’s worth, I use herbicides very sparingly on my own patch of ground (on poison ivy that keeps trying to invade my fence line), and Roundup not at all. I like to keep my amphibians happy. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/105 "2014-12-04T22:09:23Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Well you have me stumped. Every source I find says that roundup ready seeds are the result of genetic engineering by scientists and came onto the market in 1996. I agree with Jackmannii, that Ramira should have said “Roundup” instead of “roundup ready” when referring to the herbicide. > [@](#): > > Incidentally I can see a legitimate use for terminator GM seeds. There are crops such as pine trees which will energetically disperse their seed far beyond plantations and invade open landscapes. Where I live there is a constant battle to remove douglas fir (Oregan pine) wildings from mountainsides and high country land. A beautiful tree introduced 130 years ago. I don’t see how your example of the fir trees has anything to do with terminator seeds. Terminator seeds, I think, would be a good idea, because not only would it protect Monsanto’s patents, but it would squash a lot of the controversy, because you couldn’t have farmers accused of violating patents if the plants didn’t make viable seeds. And organic farmers would be protected from accidental pollination inter-breeding with their own crops. Unfortunately the luddites were able to cause public confusion about them and stir up a controversy, so Monsanto just dropped the idea. However, this would have nothing to do with your invasive fir tree problem. I can’t even figure out how to correct your misunderstanding, because I can’t see how you may have put those together. Can you explain more what you were thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/106 "2014-12-04T23:51:17Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The example quoted meets the definition provided. > > I see you’ve dropped the claim that kalettes were not developed through an artificial process with unknown consequences. You have not quoted anything that indicates that indicates horizontal gene transfer was used to produce kalettes. Do you understand what horizontal gene transfer is? Do you know the ways in which it occurs? Please explain precisely which of the very few types of horizontal gene transfer was used to create kalettes. A Q-tip of pollen is not horizontal gene transfer. And nobody believes that it’s an artificial process. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/107 "2014-12-05T00:04:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Saving and planting the seeds the next season is what is prohibited. Right. [Although:](http://www.soybeans.com/faq.aspx) > [@](#): > > The first opportunity for farmers to save Roundup Ready® soybean seed for planting will be from their 2014 harvest, to plant in the spring of 2015. This is the first variety going off-patent in the US. In Canada, the patents were maybe two years shorter, so they are further on in the process. > [@Ken001](#): > > The Monsanto roundup-ready terminator seeds are the only type of GMO contemplated and under public discussion. You may have just meant public discussion in New Zealand and be correct about that. But see: > **[Flavr Savr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavr_Savr)** > > Flavr Savr (also known as CGN-89564-2; pronounced "flavor saver"), a genetically modified tomato, was the first commercially grown genetically engineered food to be granted a license for human consumption. It was developed by the Californian company Calgene in the 1980s. The tomato has an improved shelf-life, increased fungal resistance and a slightly increased viscosity compared to its non-modified counterpart. It was meant to be harvested ripe for increased flavor for long-distance shippi Tomat... > **[The Golden Rice Project](http://www.goldenrice.org/index.php)** > > The Golden Rice Project ---
**Author:** ![Ken001](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/43a26b/32.png) [@Ken001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ken001)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/108 "2014-12-05T02:12:36Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > You may have just meant public discussion in New Zealand and be correct about that. But see: > > [Flavr Savr - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavr_Savr) > > [The Golden Rice Project](http://www.goldenrice.org/index.php) Yes I did, and thanks for the links. Slightly OT but it annoys me that food irradiation hasn’t become a global method of treating fresh food. The technology is well understood and a facility arguably as safe as the nuclear medicine rooms in a hospital setting. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/109 "2014-12-05T03:39:35Z")
Many of the folks I know who freak out about Monsanto and GMOs also really dislike the use of pesticides. Even more so than they dislike GMOs. But pesticide use in the U.S. has been decreasing steady, in large part due to the increased prevalence of GM’d crops. The 16 Aug 2013 issue of _Science_ discusses this, if anyone is interested. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/110 "2014-12-05T04:07:31Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Many of the folks I know who freak out about Monsanto and GMOs also really dislike the use of pesticides. Even more so than they dislike GMOs. But pesticide use in the U.S. has been decreasing steady, in large part due to the increased prevalence of GM’d crops. The 16 Aug 2013 issue of _Science_ discusses this, if anyone is interested. I forgot the DOI. It’s at 10.1126/science.341.6147.728 and 10.1126/science.341.6147.730 . Overall pesticide use dropped ~0.6%/year 1980-2007. For corn, it’s dropped from \> 200 g/ha in 1996, when folks started planting it, to ~10 g/ha in 2010. That’s with \>60% market penetration of Bt corn in 2010. It’s ~75% penetration now. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/111 "2014-12-05T10:34:32Z")
There was a great debate about genetically modified crops a couple days ago: [Genetically Modify Food - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7iLPJMEkiU&list=UUenxjWEkb0Sv67vejOgZ3Tg) I watch a lot of debates from that organization, and this one was perhaps the most lopsided one I’ve ever seen. Skip to the final five minutes for the results, and browse the comments if you don’t have time for the full debate but want to see the results. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/112 "2014-12-05T11:52:02Z")
> [@Ken001](#): > > Well you have me stumped. Every source I find says that roundup ready seeds are the result of genetic engineering by scientists and came onto the market in 1996. No I typed “roundup ready” without thinking, I mean the roundup up. > [@](#): > > It is possible that naturally occurring resistant plants were found and bred from by Monsanto and Dow: is that what you are saying? No I meant your objection was false to the GMO as it has much more to do with the impact of the herbicide than the gmo itself. In any case, natural glyphosate resistance has emerged so it did not need scaremongering about GMO. > [@](#): > > If you mean the development of glyphosate, no argument. However a plant has a far more intimate and complex interaction with insects and the soil than a single application of a herbicide, so IMHO we should pay attention to any side-effects. There may be none. Fine. This is a false argument - the repeated applications of the herbicides which was the actual standards in the past have had a major impact - the words intimate and complex have no proper meaning here. They are emotional words. > [@](#): > > Good point. The reality is that the public discussion has been suffused with fearful myths. Until now I thought terminator seeds were in use. almost all your comments repeat myths and misunderstandings, mixing the issues of herbicide impacts with the gmo without the proper discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/113 "2014-12-05T14:24:25Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > nobody believes that it’s an artificial process Did you read the article I linked to? The process by which kalettes were developed (or any modern vegetable - try comparing today’s hybrid corn to teosinte, for example) was _highly_ artificial. People who have no real conception of the technology involved (which includes far more than a Q-tip with pollen on it; ever hear of tissue culture, for instance?) have the fantasy that it is natural and GMOs are horribly artificial, but this does not make sense. Sorry you have such a bug up your butt when it comes to accepting this simple point, but it’s doing you no good to deny its validity as pointed out by numerous science-based advocates of biotechnology. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/114 "2014-12-05T15:23:22Z")
Where is the horizontal gene transfer. You used that as part of your argument. Where is it? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2014, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/115 "2014-12-06T01:10:50Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Not that it matters. I’m all for painting anti-GMOers as idiots, but if you want to do so by posting factually incorrect information, please [stop helping](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=624026). Unless your purpose is to make folks who support GMOs look bad. In which case, by all means proceed with business as usual. Somebody is making the pro-GMO crowd look bad, but it isn’t Jackmannii, even if he may have used a bad example. Your insistence that he “stop helping” is offensive in the extreme and disproportionate to any mistake he may have made. I find his posts to be excellent, and I really hope he ignores your command. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/116 "2014-12-07T15:40:40Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Somebody is making the pro-GMO crowd look bad, but it isn’t Jackmannii, even if he may have used a bad example. Your insistence that he “stop helping” is offensive in the extreme and disproportionate to any mistake he may have made. I find his posts to be excellent, and I really hope he ignores your command. Do you agree that “the new hybrid kale/brussels sprouts vegetable created through horizontal gene transfer” is blatantly false? Because it is. Is it helpful to spread misinformation? This board is about fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/117 "2014-12-07T16:50:30Z")
What about people? Sometimes gene transfer is horizontal: [On the bed, [also…] on the floor, on a towel by the door, in the tub, in the car, up against the mini-bar.](http://www.videosundry.com/music-videos/sarah-silverman-jimmy-kimmel-live-matt-damon/) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/118 "2014-12-07T16:52:43Z")
[QUOTE=Ruken] This board is about fighting ignorance. [/QUOTE] Good. Then we can dispense with nonsense like this. > [@Ruken](#): > > nobody believes that (non-GM plant breeding) is an artificial process Calling the author of [this article](http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/06/13/genetically-modified-lab-created-kale-brussel-sprouts-kalettes-embraced-by-anti-gmo-foodies/) hosted by the Genetic Literacy Project “an idiot who doesn’t understand middle-school biology” doesn’t do a lot for fighting ignorance either. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/119 "2014-12-07T16:56:20Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > What about people? Sometimes gene transfer is horizontal Joking aside, we are chock full of nonparental DNA (many generations, removed, obviously). Kale and B sprouts likely are as well, although I have no special knowledge there. It just wasn’t put there by someone. > **[Endogenous retrovirus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogenous_retrovirus)** > > Endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) are endogenous viral elements in the genome that closely resemble and can be derived from retroviruses. They are abundant in the genomes of jawed vertebrates, and they comprise up to 5–8% of the human genome (lower estimates of ~1%). > An ERV is a vertically inherited proviral sequence and a subclass of a type of gene called a transposon, which can normally be packaged and moved within the genome to serve a vital role in gene expression and in regulation. ERVs, howev... ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/120 "2014-12-07T17:04:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Good. Then we can dispense with nonsense like this. > Calling the author of [this article](http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/06/13/genetically-modified-lab-created-kale-brussel-sprouts-kalettes-embraced-by-anti-gmo-foodies/) hosted by the Genetic Literacy Project “an idiot who doesn’t understand middle-school biology” doesn’t do a lot for fighting ignorance either. Her article is an inaccurate opinion piece by a non-scientist that still does not address the claim of horizontal gene transfer. You said yourself that no one is claiming that kalettes are GMOs, so why link to a “science journalist” who does? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/121 "2014-12-07T17:15:22Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Do you agree that “the new hybrid kale/brussels sprouts vegetable created through horizontal gene transfer” is blatantly false? Because it is. Is it helpful to spread misinformation? This board is about fighting ignorance. I don’t know, and don’t particularly care. It’s one thing to fight ignorance, but it’s another thing entirely to tell someone to stop participating in the discussion. That’s a dazzling display of arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658/122 "2014-12-07T19:35:23Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Her article is an inaccurate opinion piece by a non-scientist In what way is it inaccurate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-monsanto-evil/705658.md?page=7)