# Why is Moscow "the third Rome"? What's the second? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 27, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728 "2007-05-27T20:24:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728/1 "2007-05-27T20:24:22Z")
From the AP coverage of the recent gay-rights parade that turned violent in Moscow, thanks to a bunch of homophobic thugs: \*“We believe these perverts should not be allowed to march on the streets of Moscow, the third Rome, a holy city for all Russians,” said Igor Miroshnichenko, who said he was an Orthodox believer who had come to support the riot police. \* I’ve never heard that phrase before. What’s it mean? Would the second be Constantinople/Istanbul? Is there a _fourth_ Rome? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728/2 "2007-05-27T20:31:50Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Would the second be Constantinople/Istanbul? Is there a _fourth_ Rome? [/QUOTE] Before Googling … it does seem reasonable that Constantinople would be the second Rome. It was the capital of the Byzantine Empire, which was formerly the eastern half of the Roman Empire. Also, Constantinople and Moscow may be being compared to Rome as the seats of major Christian denominations – Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728/3 "2007-05-27T20:32:56Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] I’ve never heard that phrase before. What’s it mean? Would the second be Constantinople/Istanbul? Is there a _fourth_ Rome? [/QUOTE] > **[Succession of the Roman Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome)** > > The continuation, succession, and revival of the Roman Empire is a running theme of the history of Europe and the Mediterranean Basin. It reflects the lasting memories of power, prestige, and unity associated with the Roman Empire. Several polities have claimed immediate continuity with the Roman Empire, using its name or a variation thereof as their own exclusive or non-exclusive self-description. As centuries went by and more political ruptures occurred, the idea of institutional continuity b... Wikipedia reports that: > [@](#): > > The Third Rome idea is that Moscow is the successor to the legacy of the Roman Empire (the Second Rome being Constantinople). This concept has been popular since the times of the early Russian Tsars. One always has to confirm what Wikipedia says: in this case it seems that they are on the money: > **[MOSCOW THE THIRD ROME](https://pages.uoregon.edu/sshoemak/325/texts/moscow_the_third_rome.htm)** > [@](#): > > The Apollinarian heresy caused the downfall of old Rome. The Turks used their axes to shatter the doors of all churches of the Second Rome, the city of Constantinople. Now [in Moscow], the new Third Rome, the Holy Ecumenical Apostolic Church of your sovereign state shines brighter than the sun in the universal Orthodox Christian faith throughout the world. Pious Tsar! Let [people of] your state know that all states of the Orthodox faith have now merged into one, your state. You are the only true Christian ruler under the sky! Good guess **bordelond**. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728/4 "2007-05-27T20:42:57Z")
Also, one of the tsars married the niece of the last Byzantine emperor. After the Turks sacked Constantinople, the Russians claimed to be the heirs to the dynasty. Ivan the Terrible supposedly said, “Two Romes have fallen. Moscow is the third. A fourth there shall not be.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728/5 "2007-05-27T20:44:25Z")
And “Tsar” is Russian for “Caesar”. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728/6 "2007-05-27T20:50:04Z")
And, on viewing **GIGObuster** ’s link, I find that I botched some of the details. > [@](#): > > by Wikipedia: > Within decades after the Fall of Constantinople to Mehmed II of the Ottoman Empire on 29 May 1453, some were nominating Moscow as the “Third Rome”, or new “New Rome”. Stirrings of this sentiment began during the reign of Ivan III, Grand Duke of Moscow who had married Sophia Paleologue. Sophia was a niece of Constantine XI, the last Eastern Roman Emperor and Ivan could claim to be the heir of the fallen Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire). > [@](#): > > by Wikipedia: > The idea crystallized with a panegyric letter composed by the Russian monk Philoteus (Filofey) in 1510 to their son Grand Duke Vasili III , which proclaimed, “Two Romes have fallen. The third stands. And there will not be a fourth. No one will replace your Christian Tsardom!” Contrary to the common misconception, Filofey explicitly identifies Third Rome with Russia (the country) rather than with Moscow (the city). ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728/7 "2007-05-27T20:58:49Z")
Alikening the Imperial Orb to a baseball in Wrigley Field being passed from Tinker to Evers to Chance. But this overlooks the fact that the original Rome was always in the hands of Christians, including the Arian Christian Visigoths who sacked it in 410. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728/8 "2007-05-27T21:37:27Z")
[QUOTE=Slithy Tove] Alikening the Imperial Orb to a baseball in Wrigley Field being passed from Tinker to Evers to Chance. But this overlooks the fact that the original Rome was always in the hands of Christians, including the Arian Christian Visigoths who sacked it in 410. [/QUOTE] But the Byzantines didn’t think so. As far as they were concerned, the Catholic Church had gone wrong, so the tradition was theirs; the Holy City was transferred to Constantinople. When that city fell, Russia took over as the spiritual center of the Orthodox faith and became the heir to the true Christian Church–the Third Rome. Meanwhile, just the same thing happened in the West, with the Holy Roman Empire that considered itself the heir to the tradition of Rome as spiritual capital. Thus the German word Kaiser, the Western equivalent of Tsar. (I was rather gleeful about this just the other day, when I read about it and realized why people said things like “Holy Russia.” I knew Tsar was Caesar, but I didn’t realize that they meant it literally!) ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-moscow-the-third-rome-whats-the-second/405728/9 "2007-05-27T22:40:38Z")
[QUOTE=dangermom] But the Byzantines didn’t think so. As far as they were concerned, the Catholic Church had gone wrong, so the tradition was theirs; the Holy City was transferred to Constantinople. When that city fell, Russia took over as the spiritual center of the Orthodox faith and became the heir to the true Christian Church–the Third Rome. Meanwhile, just the same thing happened in the West, with the Holy Roman Empire that considered itself the heir to the tradition of Rome as spiritual capital. Thus the German word Kaiser, the Western equivalent of Tsar. [/quote] Before the fall of Byzantium, this schism resulted in a rather amusing situation in which the German Charlemagne offering to marry the Byzantine Irene; both considered themselves to be the “Emperor/Empress of Rome”, despite neither one being, properly speaking, Roman.