# Why is most classic children's fantasy British? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 25, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713 "2013-04-25T21:50:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/41 "2013-04-26T17:13:08Z")
E. Nesbit is another classic of the genre that should be on your list! Not all, but a lot of the British works we are talking about were published after WWI. Just something to throw out for discussion - I wonder how much the direct impact of the war influenced the appeal of fantasy literature. It was harrowing, and I don’t think Americans felt that as much, being geographically isolated from the war. If this was a factor, it could also support the continued appeal of some of the earlier titles as well. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/42 "2013-04-26T17:43:57Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > The fantasies by Edward Eager were, and are, wonderful. > > [Edward Eager - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Eager#Book_descriptions) > > _Half-Magic_ is a favorite of mine. heh…Half-Magic was based on E. Nesbit’s _The Story of the Amulet_. It’s been a very long time since I read it, but I believe Eager did reference The Story of the Amulet. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/43 "2013-04-26T17:53:08Z")
In fact, IIRC, _Half Magic_ starts with the Eager children discovering the E. Nesbit books and yearning for such adventures of their own… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/44 "2013-04-26T18:06:15Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Certainly there are cultural differences between the two, but you’re listing just the differences and not the similarities. There were many similarities, which make the differences all the more pronounced. That reminds me of something I heard this week. _London Boulevard_ is sort of a hybrid gangster movie. It was filmed in the UK with a British cast but it was written and directed by an American, William Monahan. Monahan pointed out a difference between American and British gangster movies. He said the American gangsters movies tend to be about guys at the top of the gang while British gangster movies tend to be about guys at the bottom of the gang. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/45 "2013-04-26T18:21:27Z")
Has Rudyard Kipling been mentioned yet? He was certainly a great British fantasist, although he grew up in India and also did some writing in the U.S. I’m not sure where he wrote \*The Jungle Books. \* Lucy Boston should be listed as a great British fantasy writer too, IMHO, for her _Green Knowe_ books. As far as Americans go, Natalie Babbitt should be mentioned for her wonderful fantasies _The Search for Delicious_ and _Tuck Everlasting_. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/46 "2013-04-26T18:56:06Z")
Missed the edit window, but two other British fantasists who also wrote/write for children (and should be mentioned) are Richard Adams (_Watership Down_) and Terry Pratchett. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/47 "2013-04-26T18:59:53Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I would say that all of the following American writers are significant writers of children’s (or maybe you might call it young adults’) fantasy: > > Lynne Reid Banks I snipped most of your list, and I haven’t bothered to check any of the others, but this jumped out: Lynne Reid Banks isn’t American. (Nor are Neil Gaiman or Susan Cooper, of course, but I suppose you’re entitled to your opinion on that.) ---
**Author:** ![Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8c91f0/32.png) [@Bam\_Boo\_Gut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bam_Boo_Gut)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/48 "2013-04-26T19:07:25Z")
Beatrix Potter - shocked to see she’s not been mentioned yet. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/49 "2013-04-26T19:09:22Z")
While not an answer to why, a data point that says children’s lit is indeed a very British endeavor: The opening ceremony of the London Olympics had a section devoted to British children’s literature. Voldemort v. Mary Poppins, indeed! ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/50 "2013-04-27T02:55:13Z")
Teacake writes: \> I snipped most of your list, and I haven’t bothered to check any of the others, \> but this jumped out: Lynne Reid Banks isn’t American. (Nor are Neil Gaiman or \> Susan Cooper, of course, but I suppose you’re entitled to your opinion on that.) I could have sworn that I carefully checked each of the authors to make sure what their nationality was, but somehow I missed that one. My apologies. Gaiman and Cooper have spent most of their adult life in the U.S. How long do you think that it takes for an author to become an American? Is Tolkien South African because he was born there? Does Frances Hodgson Burnett count as American, British, or French? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/51 "2013-04-27T03:20:54Z")
In my opinion, where an author has grown up makes up a big part of their identity, sensibility, and point of view—especially if they write for children. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/52 "2013-04-27T03:36:54Z")
So what’s the oldest that an author can be when he leaves the country where he was born before you consider his main influence to be the country where he spent most of his life rather than the one where he was born? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/53 "2013-04-27T12:33:35Z")
One simple criterion is where the author sets their stories. Cooper, for instance, apparently considered England to be a more appropriate setting for fantasy than the US. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/54 "2013-04-27T14:19:43Z")
As I said, you’re entitled to your opinion. It wouldn’t be my opinion that those authors are American. My brother has now spent most of his adult life in America, has an American wife and American children, etc., but he’s not American either. And he doesn’t write children’s books about the place where he spent his formative years. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/55 "2013-04-27T14:27:34Z")
Also (and with apologies for posting twice, but it was a slow thought) the fact that both those writers, and my brother, only went to America because they were in a relationship which required it, seems to me to make a difference to how “American” they are. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/56 "2013-04-27T15:04:12Z")
Chronos, Lloyd Anderson set his stories in Wales, despite the fact that he only lived there for a few months while a soldier. The rest of his life was spent in the U.S. except for a year or so studying in Paris and a few months in Germany as a soldier. Does that make him Welsh? Or are you saying that anyone was born in the U.K., no matter how briefly they lived there, who ever set any stories there, should be considered British? And what about Frances Hodgson Burnett, who lived in the U.K. till she was sixteen? She then lived in Tennessee for eight years. Then she lived in Paris for two years. Then she lived in Washington, D.C. for fifteen years, where she began her writing career. Then she lived in the U.K. for nine years. Then she lived on Long Island for the last seventeen years of her life. I’d say that everywhere a person has ever lived is relevant. (Should I ever write a novel, I’d say that the twenty-three years in Ohio, and the three years in Florida, and the three years in Texas, and the three years in England, and the twenty-eight-and-a-half years in Maryland are all relevant.) And I’d say that none of us is qualified to say why a writer chose to move somewhere. You don’t know that the only reason was because of a relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/57 "2013-04-27T15:13:20Z")
Fine. Like I said, you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m also entitled to mine. And since we’re all about statistics, your summary of Frances Hodgson Burnett ignores her frequent and lengthy stays in Britain (one of which lasted two years) during the fifteen years you have her living in Washington. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/58 "2013-04-27T15:48:04Z")
The stunning new bestseller: _Mystery Writers Are from Earth, Science Fiction Writers Are From Mars!_ ---
**Author:** ![esmeralda2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@esmeralda2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/esmeralda2)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/59 "2013-04-27T15:50:59Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Certainly there are cultural differences between the two, but you’re listing just the differences and not the similarities. There were many similarities, which make the differences all the more pronounced. Mysteries are an obvious one. They can be found in both countries even before Sherlock Holmes made them into a sensation. The Holmes stories were all reprinted in America (some even appearing there first), and any number of authors wrote characters that would be proclaimed “the American Holmes” in dozens or hundreds of short stories. When the mystery genre started selling regularly in books after WWI, both Brits and Americans wrote similar styles of books. The borrowing went both ways. Of course there were hard-boiled British writers. Take a look at the cover for [No Orchids for Miss Blandish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Orchids_for_Miss_Blandish_%28novel%29). “the toughest novel you ever read” And it might be, although Chase wrote many more that tried to top it. True, there was no British tradition of private eyes - Orchids is set in Florida - but their equivalent was thriller and spy novels, with Sapper’s Bulldog Drummond character as hard-boiled as any, and a huge influence on later pulp writing. > > H. G. Wells and George England started writing science fiction about the same time as Doyle created Holmes, and their books were reprinted - or pirated - instantly in America, also creating a legion of imitators, probably with William Wallace Cook being the top name in the first decade of the 20th century. Both the pulps and the better-quality magazines printed what we could call science fiction, or fantasy, or science fantasy, or weird tales regularly, sometimes in almost every issue, both from American authors and reprints of British authors. That usually went only one way - the Brits thought they had the superior writers and American pulpsters didn’t get reprinted as much over there. > > But that makes it all the more surprising that Americans, who copied everything British, didn’t copy children’s fantasy to any great extent. It is odd, and it’s an anomaly that’s not easy to explain. The ‘hard boiled detective’ is a specific genre and specifically American. There is no ‘hard boiled’ genre such as you imply. British mystery writers have have detectives–Christie, Sayers, Doyle, etc,. but not the hard boiled detective: that is a uniquely American genre. Arthur Conan Doyle did not create the mystory story, Edgar Allan Poe did. British spy novels are not the equivalent of American private eye stories. There is no correlation in literary terms. Americans didn’t copy everything British. What a ridiculous thing to claim. Anyway, spy novels, fantasy novels, science fiction, etc., these are are formulaic, popular fiction. Serious literature is a very different thing, and most certainly, what American authors have done is definitely not a copy of what the British have done. There isn’t a competition about it. There isn’t a hierarchy of which country is better. The important, serious authors from all countries, be they English speaking countries or otherwise, stand on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/60 "2013-04-27T16:12:34Z")
> [@](#): > > nyway, spy novels, fantasy novels, science fiction, etc., these are are formulaic, popular fiction. There’s certainly a lot of bad fantasy and SF out there that are formulaic stories. There’s also a lot of good fantasy and SF which is anything but formulaic. I generally don’t read spy novels, so I don’t have an opinion one way or the other. Since you have stated that you don’t read fantasy and SF, you probably should avoid declaring that those genres are formulaic. I think that you can find examples of formula stories in any genre. Certainly, the publishers reward SF and fantasy writers who will write clones of the latest popular books, and the writers who dare to write something that’s not formula will have a much harder time getting their books published by non-vanity presses. Personally, if I never come across another vampire/lycanthrope/“normal” human female love triangle, it will be too soon. But a few of these books have been very successful, so publishers are looking for more books that follow this formula, and they aren’t picky about quality, just quantity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713.md?page=4)