# Why is most classic children's fantasy British? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 25, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713 "2013-04-25T21:50:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/61 "2013-04-27T16:48:32Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Chronos, Lloyd Anderson set his stories in Wales, despite the fact that he only lived there for a few months while a soldier. The rest of his life was spent in the U.S. except for a year or so studying in Paris and a few months in Germany as a soldier. Does that make him Welsh? Or are you saying that anyone was born in the U.K., no matter how briefly they lived there, who ever set any stories there, should be considered British? > > And what about Frances Hodgson Burnett, who lived in the U.K. till she was sixteen? She then lived in Tennessee for eight years. Then she lived in Paris for two years. Then she lived in Washington, D.C. for fifteen years, where she began her writing career. Then she lived in the U.K. for nine years. Then she lived on Long Island for the last seventeen years of her life. I’d say that everywhere a person has ever lived is relevant. (Should I ever write a novel, I’d say that the twenty-three years in Ohio, and the three years in Florida, and the three years in Texas, and the three years in England, and the twenty-eight-and-a-half years in Maryland are all relevant.) And I’d say that none of us is qualified to say why a writer chose to move somewhere. You don’t know that the only reason was because of a relationship. Definitely not children’s lit, but Nabokov is a good example of the issues in identifying the “nationality” of the author. Lolita is a love affair with Americana, in many ways a very American novel, but Nabokov, who was an American citizen, did not grow up here and chose not to die here. I think the New World opened itself up to more realism in Children’s lit - Little House, Mark Twain, Anne of Green Gables, Maud Hart Lovelace - and later with Judy Blume. Maybe that was originally due to the pace of change in the New World - the authors could see the world of their childhoods disappear before their eyes, and the popularity among children to look back to a world just out of their reach. By the time Judy Blume came along, it was contemporary literature, but the base of realism in American Children’s lit had been fairly well established. Likewise, a lot of the children’s lit of Britian is escapist post WWI or WWII literature. America has not, since the Civil War, really had to live up close and personal to a war. If you go back to Fantasy mythology, Britain has a fairly rich history (not as rich as Germanic countries) of fairies and banshees. America doesn’t have that. Our mythology is Paul Bunyan and John Henry. Britians retelling of history is full of Magic - from King Arthur to Anne Boleyn being a witch. That isn’t the history of America. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/62 "2013-04-27T17:47:48Z")
> [@esmeralda2](#): > > Americans didn’t copy everything British. This would have stunned readers in the 19th century. Most of that era was a long, anguished discussion of whether there would ever be an American literature. The novelists that we pick out today as the creators of that true American literature are the exceptions, writers not representative of their time. They had varying degrees of fame and success in that time, but then as now writers of popular fiction made the most money and sold the most books. (We remember _Uncle Tom’s Cabin_ as a bestseller, but how many think of _Ben Hur_ as the top selling book of the century?) Despite the many predecessors, American literature becomes a distinctive separate beast only after WWI, which can truly be said changed everything. > [@](#): > > Anyway, spy novels, fantasy novels, science fiction, etc., these are are formulaic, popular fiction. Serious literature is a very different thing, and most certainly, what American authors have done is definitely not a copy of what the British have done. There isn’t a competition about it. There isn’t a hierarchy of which country is better. The important, serious authors from all countries, be they English speaking countries or otherwise, stand on their own. Oh, I don’t know, genre literature may be pertinent to the discussion. The OP is specifically about it, after all. That might be a clue. The oversimplified false dichotomy of genre and serious literature is an artifact of modern times. In the time frame the OP asks about - the late 19th/early20th centuries - serious writers could and did write such works. Or earlier. In Blieler’s compendium _Science Fiction: The Early Years_, the 19th century American author with the most entries is Hawthorne. The separation of serious fiction and genres is almost entirely a post-WWI occurrence. If you claim to know British literature, then you should also known that while categorization of genre did eventually take place, it was and is more respectable for serious writers there to write and sell works that would normally be categorized as genre to top publishers. But we aren’t talking about “serious” literature here, are we? > [@Dangerosa](#): > > Definitely not children’s lit, but Nabokov is a good example of the issues in identifying the “nationality” of the author. Lolita is a love affair with Americana, in many ways a very American novel, but Nabokov, who was an American citizen, did not grow up here and chose not to die here. You can look at Lolita as a very American novel. You can also look at Lolita as a work of anthropological science fiction, a report from a traveler about a very weird and foreign world in which he can never become a true native. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/63 "2013-04-27T18:00:39Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > So what’s the oldest that an author can be when he leaves the country where he was born before you consider his main influence to be the country where he spent most of his life rather than the one where he was born? In case this is a serious question, my answer is that I’d have to decide it on a case-by-case basis. Certainly, some of the authors (or their works) on the list are more “American” in outlook than others. Another name that possibly belongs on the list is Carl Sandburg, whose [Rootabaga Stories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootabaga_Stories) were deliberately written as American fairy tales. I haven’t encountered anyone who has a special affection for them, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/64 "2013-04-27T22:32:13Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Another name that possibly belongs on the list is Carl Sandburg, whose [Rootabaga Stories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rootabaga_Stories) were deliberately written as American fairy tales. I haven’t encountered anyone who has a special affection for them, though. This made me think of Joel Chandler Harris’s “Uncle Remus” stories, which are admittedly more folktale than fantasy but definitely not realism (talking animals and all that). If Beatrix Potter counts as children’s fantasy, I’d say that Uncle Remus does. And that made me wonder whether changing views of race have been a factor in this issue. Some potential classics may have fallen into obscurity partly because their assumptions about race in American society have been too off-putting to later readers. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/65 "2013-04-27T23:29:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > …Or maybe it’s because England is an old country with a long tradition of fairy tales and Arthurian legends and other centuries-old culture. > [@](#): > > …Trackway and Camp and City lost, > Salt Marsh where now is corn; > Old Wars, old Peace, old Arts that cease, > And so was England born! > > She is not any common Earth, > Water or Wood or Air, > But Merlin’s Isle of Gramarye, > Where you and I will fare. [Puck’s Song](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/557/557-h/557-h.htm#pucksong)–by Kipling, of course. I can only compare the English-speaking nations here. American writers were trying to indoctrinate children with American ideals–using legends of the Doughty Pilgrims, the Founding Fathers & the Bold Pioneers. Immigrant children poured into US schools from all over the world–they needed sound & moral instruction on how to become Americans. No time for silliness! Washington Irving supplied a bit of historical fantasy. Poe gave nightmares to any children who happened upon his arcane volumes. Mark Twain did his bit of time travel–to get his message across; still, not only for the kids. But most of our children’s lit was more straightforward–from Louisa May Alcott’s colorful family tales to the dreck that is the Elsie Dinsmore series… Writers of the British Isles had their own ancient land as inspiration; our ancient tales were in other languages–mostly lost. Of course, British children’s lit did include moralizing–which Lewis Carroll lampooned. Meanwhile, William Morris translated Norse tales, scholars investigated the Matter of Britain & exotic tales poured in from the Empire. Rich stuff! The Ghosts of the Alamo could not compare… ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/66 "2013-04-28T00:05:21Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This made me think of Joel Chandler Harris’s “Uncle Remus” stories, which are admittedly more folktale than fantasy but definitely not realism (talking animals and all that). If Beatrix Potter counts as children’s fantasy, I’d say that Uncle Remus does. Now that you’ve mentioned talking animal stories, you’ve reminded me of [Thornton W. Burgess](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_Burgess)’s “Old Mother West Wind” stories. Not to mention the Freddy the Pig books by Walter R. Brooks, whom I’m sure at least one other Doper besides myself has read. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/67 "2013-04-28T22:33:37Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > How do you think that’s relevant here? I think the OP’s premise is false. There is a lot of British children’s fantasy but not “most”. I would even say the British aren’t disproportionate in their contribution. So the question is not what’s in the water in the UK, rather it’s the question why the OP likes British children’s lit so much. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/68 "2013-04-28T22:56:26Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > If you go back to Fantasy mythology, Britain has a fairly rich history (not as rich as Germanic countries) of fairies and banshees. America doesn’t have that. Our mythology is Paul Bunyan and John Henry. Britians retelling of history is full of Magic - from King Arthur to Anne Boleyn being a witch. That isn’t the history of America. Wales and Scotland (and Ireland) can certainly equal the Germanic countries for their fairy stories; England has remarkably few, and they’re largely borrowed from other cultures. Reputedly, the dearth of English myth was one of the drivers for Tolkien’s writing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/69 "2013-04-28T23:33:08Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > I think the OP’s premise is false. > > There is a lot of British children’s fantasy but not “most”. I would even say the British aren’t disproportionate in their contribution. > > So the question is not what’s in the water in the UK, rather it’s the question why the OP likes British children’s lit so much. The OP did not say that most children’s fantasy was British. A much narrower claim was made: > [@](#): > > When you look at the body of classic children’s fantasy (especially the kind that comes from the so-called “golden age” of children’s lit–the mid-1800s to the early twentieth century or thereabouts), nearly all of it originates in the U.K. This is certainly true, and the comments here haven’t shown any major counterexamples, except for the Oz stories that the OP specifically mentions. If you dispute this, then you need to give your listing of classic children’s fantasy from “the mid-1800s to the early twentieth century” as disproof. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/70 "2013-04-29T01:00:24Z")
Lindgren, Karl May, Jules Verne, Hergé, Goscinny, Uderzo, Hans Cristian Andersen, Michael Ende, André Franquin. Just to name a few. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/71 "2013-04-29T01:01:53Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > The OP did not say that most children’s fantasy was British. A much narrower claim was made: > > > [@](#): > > > > When you look at the body of classic children’s fantasy (especially the kind that comes from the so-called “golden age” of children’s lit–the mid-1800s to the early twentieth century or thereabouts), nearly all of it originates in the U.K. True, but I think the OP then proceeded to confoozulate many of us to some extent by offering a list of sample UK kidlit fantasy classics that ended with the decidedly post-“golden age” Harry Potter books. Indisputably, Harry Potter dates from an era when it could no longer be reasonably claimed that children’s fantasy was an overwhelmingly British genre, so I think that may have distracted some readers from the OP’s central point about the earlier period. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/72 "2013-04-29T01:07:30Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Lindgren, Karl May, Jules Verne, Hergé, Goscinny, Uderzo, Hans Cristian Andersen, Michael Ende, André Franquin. None of whom, AFAICT, originally published in English, which I think is a criterion that needs to be assumed to make the OP’s claim valid. I also question whether, for example, Ende and Franquin, both of whom were born after 1923, properly count as examples of children’s authors from the “early twentieth century”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/73 "2013-04-29T02:43:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > None of whom, AFAICT, originally published in English, which I think is a criterion that needs to be assumed to make the OP’s claim valid. > > I also question whether, for example, Ende and Franquin, both of whom were born after 1923, properly count as examples of children’s authors from the “early twentieth century”. Uderzo was born in 1927, Goscinny in 1926. Jules Verne never wrote fantasy or children’s literature. Goscinny, Hergé, and Uderzo wrote comics rather than prose fiction. And most of the names on that list along with their characters are virtually unknown to American audiences. (And it doesn’t even bother to list the sources of classic Disney movies, like Felix Salter or Carlo Collodi. For that matter, it doesn’t list Mickey Mouse. Or Little Nemo. Or Zorro. Or Superman. [movie, comic strip, pulp magazine, comic book]) But let’s not use realistic criteria or keep to the spirit of the OP. That’s almost like cheating. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/74 "2013-04-29T06:59:59Z")
I read the title of this thread and thought of all the books I read as a child. I am sorry if I hijacked this thread with some fantasy you think doesn’t fit the bill. (Never mind the examples the OP gave). It might be obvious to you the OP was talking about **English** literature, but somehow it isn’t mentioned anywhere. If the question is “why are most authors of **English** children’s fantasy books **between 1850 and 1950** British?”, I will happily concede the premise of the question and answer: Because most English speaking(writing) people where British. It’s noting to do with the water, it’s sheer numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/75 "2013-04-29T09:34:58Z")
> [@esmeralda2](#): > > The ‘hard boiled detective’ is a specific genre and specifically American. There is no ‘hard boiled’ genre such as you imply. British mystery writers have have detectives–Christie, Sayers, Doyle, etc,. but not the hard boiled detective: that is a uniquely American genre. What’s the difference between a detective and a hard-boiled one? I’m trying to figure out if the famous ones from Spanish and Portuguese literature are hard-boiled or not. Would “could easily have been inspired by too many viewings of The Maltese Falcon” be a criterion? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/76 "2013-04-29T12:08:38Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > It might be obvious to you the OP was talking about **English** literature, but somehow it isn’t mentioned anywhere. I’m still not sure whether this is what the OP had in mind or not. And I, for one, am curious whether the supposed dominance of the British over children’s fantasy in the time period singled out by the OP is universal or just specific to English-language works. How much good fantasy was written in other languages, especially during the 19th and early 20th centuries, that English readers don’t know about? And how much, if any, of the fantasy read by children in other countries during this time period was British (in translation)? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/77 "2013-04-29T13:13:13Z")
The Librarian writes: \> . . . most English speaking(writing) people where British . . . It is certainly not true that the majority of English speakers were British in that period. The population of the U.S. was 76,212,168 in 1900. The population of the U.K. was 38,237,000 in 1901. And there are several other countries with a majority of English speakers. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/78 "2013-04-29T13:16:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Maybe this indicates the answer. Maybe British children were reading fantasy about elves and wizards while American children were reading historical adventures about knights and pirates. And about the West, and the War, and that native American classic: poor boy does well (better than the best of the old country). Post-war English fantasy came out of a particular cultural and religous situation that had no American equivilant, and was deliberately looking to British cultural memes which America did not share. Our woods were populated with Indians, not tree spirits. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/79 "2013-04-29T13:27:15Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > What’s the difference between a detective and a hard-boiled one? Lord Peter Wimsey came out of WWI with post traumatic stress and a disinclination to ordering people around. Sam Spade came out of WWII with post traumatic stress and a disinclination to being ordered around. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713/80 "2013-04-29T14:53:11Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > The Librarian writes: > > \> . . . most English speaking(writing) people where British . . . > > It is certainly not true that the majority of English speakers were British in that period. The population of the U.S. was 76,212,168 in 1900. The population of the U.K. was 38,237,000 in 1901. And there are several other countries with a majority of English speakers. Who said anything about the UK? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-most-classic-childrens-fantasy-british/656713.md?page=5)