# Why is north up? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 20, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115 "2002-10-20T17:35:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nanu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/dec6dc/32.png) [@Nanu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanu)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115/1 "2002-10-20T17:35:55Z")
There seems to be no particular reason why on a map north is always up. It seems arbitrary, you can look at a map upsidedown just as well so why and when did cartographers around the world agree to use the standard of north being the “up” part of the map? Did other civilizations that developed map making skills independantly from the west also use north as up? ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115/2 "2002-10-20T17:43:04Z")
The Chinese used to have South as up. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115/3 "2002-10-20T17:50:39Z")
From [here](http://www.flourish.org/upsidedownmap/) we get this tidbit: > [@](#): > > The convention came a few centuries ago when Northern hemisphere, European navigators started using the North star and the magnetic compass. Before that, the top of the map was to the East which is where the word _orient_ation comes from. That page has several related links. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115/4 "2002-10-20T18:38:52Z")
I recently saw a “South is up” oriented map of the world for sale. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115/5 "2002-10-20T19:06:30Z")
Supporting what **Ringo** wrote, there is a famous C13[sup]th[/sup] map in Hereford cathedral in England called the [Mappa Mundi](http://www.herefordwebpages.co.uk/mapmundi.shtml) (Map of the World) that is centred around Jerusalem and has east at the top. ---
**Author:** ![peepthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@peepthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peepthis)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115/6 "2002-10-20T19:10:02Z")
[Cecil says](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_159.html), blame it on Ptolemy. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115/7 "2002-10-20T20:12:28Z")
Putting east and west as up would seem to be problematic, wouldn’t it? You can go east forever, never stopping. So where’s the “top”? You can only go north for half way around the globe, then you start going south. There’s a definite, physical point where north ends. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115/8 "2002-10-20T21:48:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Flymaster \* > \*\*Putting east and west as up would seem to be problematic, wouldn’t it? You can go east forever, never stopping. So where’s the “top”? You can only go north for half way around the globe, then you start going south. There’s a definite, physical point where north ends. \*\* Well, a mapmaker has to make a decision about where east “ends” anyway, in order to produce a flat map. Reflecting that decision as a right/left border rather than an up/down one seems to be a matter of convention. When we decided that 0 degrees longitude went through Greenwich that established a point (180 degrees, middle of the Pacific) that most mapmakers would use for a split, or occasionally 90 degrees east if the map maker wanted North America in the center. That “MacArthur Universal Corrective Map” with south at the top also splits East/West 180 degrees around from Sydney, in the mid-Atlantic, so that Australia is top dead center with Africa and South America sticking “up” on the sides to frame it. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-north-up/133115/9 "2002-10-21T00:19:50Z")
Hmm…I suppose that’s a good point. I don’t know why I didn’t think of it. 🙂