# Why is nothing ever straight-forward with computers!? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241 "2004-12-11T01:59:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/21 "2004-12-12T00:52:49Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Given that we live in a more-or-less free market society, how do you account for the fact that Mac has less than 5% of the PC market share? What is it about Macs that make people stay away from them in droves, and buy an inferior product (in your opinion) 19 times out of 20? That is one of the great mysteries. Why do people think they’ve seen Elvis or UFOs? People do things that aren’t always easy to explain. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/22 "2004-12-12T00:59:34Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Does Linux feature in your reasoning? Nope. 😛 Seriously, I guess I could have made it clearer. But for your average user, I simply don’t suggest Linux. It’s hard enough to explain .BAT files to Windows users. > [@GorillaMan](#): > > Oh, fftttttttt…you could use the same logic to show that Microsoft created the worms that attacked XP, just to encourage people to install SP2. Hey, you said it, not me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/23 "2004-12-12T01:06:11Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > They certainly have firewalls… OK, on re-reading, I realise it really does sound like hardware problems. (With the Dell machines at work, I’m itchign to take the lids off and check that the USB cables are connected properly, because half of them are temperamental…) > [@](#): > > I believe her employer also eshewed SP2 because it had known conflicts with some-or-other software suite they’d licensed. If true, that’s really really bad thinking. Either the software supplier is contractually obliged to accomodate SP2 as a standard part of providing XP, or they’re free to walk away and go elsewhere. The contractor surely can’t lock them to an obsolete and insecure system?! ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/24 "2004-12-12T01:09:18Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > Nope. 😛 Seriously, I guess I could have made it clearer. But for your average user, I simply don’t suggest Linux. It’s hard enough to explain .BAT files to Windows users. You said internet, audio and word processing. How is sitting somone in front of a relevant Linux setup any different from giving them Windows? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/25 "2004-12-12T01:34:20Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > If true, that’s really really bad thinking. Either the software supplier is contractually obliged to accomodate SP2 as a standard part of providing XP, or they’re free to walk away and go elsewhere. The contractor surely can’t lock them to an obsolete and insecure system?! How about when porting the records to a competitor’s application would be a year-long project in itself? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/26 "2004-12-12T02:37:30Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > How about when porting the records to a competitor’s application would be a year-long project in itself? OK, that’s a fair point, but a very different one…migration costs are horrendous. But they can be made even worse by ICT-types agreeing to all sorts of exclusive contracts. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/27 "2004-12-12T02:42:06Z")
**FearItself** \* How do you account for the fact that Mac has less than 5% of the PC market share? What is it about Macs that make people stay away from them in droves, and buy an inferior product (in your opinion) 19 times out of 20?\* To put things in perspective, you are not comparing computer manufacturers, just operating systems. How is _Dell’s percentage_ compared to Mac’s? How about Gateway, IBM, Hewlett-Packard, etc? In that respect, the Mac “minority” doesn’t seem as insignificant does it? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/28 "2004-12-12T04:32:18Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > **FearItself** \*To put things in perspective, you are not comparing computer manufacturers, just operating systems. How is _Dell’s percentage_ compared to Mac’s? How about Gateway, IBM, Hewlett-Packard, etc? In that respect, the Mac “minority” doesn’t seem as insignificant does it? The things that people like or dislike about Wintel computers are not manufacturer specific. Your argument does nothing to diminish the fact that only one in twenty computer buyers chooses a computer running the Mac OS, regardless of manufacturer. The conclusion is plain; almost nobody likes them. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/29 "2004-12-12T04:43:16Z")
**FearItself** Yeah, I’ll agree my argument wasn’t that good. As for the #1 reason people avoid Mac’s, I’d say it was money. ---
**Author:** ![chaoticbear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@chaoticbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaoticbear)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/30 "2004-12-12T04:53:20Z")
Bah! Ignore the numbers; they are unimportant. Macs are just so damn pretty. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/31 "2004-12-12T05:02:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > You said internet, audio and word processing. How is sitting somone in front of a relevant Linux setup any different from giving them Windows? You’re right, I meant to say; internet, audio and word processing, etc… I know, I didn’t word it like I wanted to in that post. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/32 "2004-12-12T05:03:07Z")
A lot of people I know who got started on PC can’t stand Macs, so there’s certainly the inertia factor. People like what they know, and dislike change, so the early losses experienced by the Mac platform, in terms of market share, are almost inextricably imprinted on the market. But when you look back at the time period circa the point that the Mac platform’s fate was sealed, it’s difficult to find any good explanation for the relative expansion of the PC platform except price. Macs were faster and much easier to use. It had great productivity software (Microsoft Office got its start on the Mac, after all) A Mac with a 68040 was superior to its 486 counterpart, but it didn’t matter. They cost twice as much, at least, and with Win3.1 marginably usable, people chose to save the money. Over the following years, the PC platform pretty much left the Mac platform in the dust as far as speed goes. And the MacOSs pathetic memory management made it more unstable than it should have for a closed-platform product. But things have changed a lot over the past couple years, and with OSX, I’d say the Mac has again pulled into the lead in a number of respects. At the high-end, the price/performance gap has been essentially closed, and when you couple that with the rock-solid stability of the OS, iLife, the ease of handling digital media, the near seamlessness of handling peripherals and wireless networking, plus the safety from malware, I think computers can be very straightforward indeed. You just need the right computer. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/33 "2004-12-12T06:06:01Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Your argument does nothing to diminish the fact that only one in twenty computer buyers chooses a computer running the Mac OS, regardless of manufacturer. The conclusion is plain; almost nobody likes them. I’d daresay that less than one in twenty people regularly listens to Finnish composer Jean Sibelius, (who happens to be one of my favorites), but that does not mean that “almost nobody likes him,” or that he’s a _bad_ composer. What it means is that: 1. People don’t know anything about his work and aren’t interested in finding out more. 2. They know who he is but he’s not their “style” (either his style of Classical music, or just that they aren’t crazy about _any_ symphonic music). 3. Hi Opal (sorry, I rarely get a chance to do that . . . ). 4. They are familiar with his work, listen to a lot of Classical/symphonic music, but still flat-out don’t _like_ him. Now, frankly, I think the percentage of people in the #4 category are minimal. Such people exist (as shocking as it seems to me, as a big Sibelius fan), but there aren’t that many of them overall. Most people are going to be in #1 or #2 categories. This principle applies to a lot of things, including computers. Many users, I’d even be so bold as to suggest that the _majority_ of computer users these days, just barely know how to turn the damned thing on and jumpstart AOL or Internet Explorer. They are not thinking too deeply about computer OSes. Asking them what they _think_ about Macintosh (if they don’t own one) is going to get indifference, or (if they have listened to some computer geek friend who is anti-Mac) some (ignorant) dislike. When I got my first computer (a Windows-based PC) in late 1997, I sure as hell didn’t know jack shit about it, barely could get past clicking on the AOL button. Does that mean (because I wasn’t using a Mac) that I didn’t _like_ Macs? Hell no. They were a mystery to me. I got a PC because my PC-geek friends told me to. And my second (and third) computers were also PCs. Because I was already familiar with them, so why change? Only until I got adventuresome enough (and through some exposure to Macs from some Mac-using friends) did I buy a (used) Mac. And guess what? I _loved_ it. But the only reason I even got one in the first place was because I’m a little geekier than many computer users (not hardcore geek, but more curious than your average home computer user) and because I had Mac-using friends. If it hadn’t been for that, I’m sure I’d still be PC-exclusive. Numbers don’t mean much, when you’re talking about people who are either too ignorant (and I don’t mean that in a mean way—so was I), or just don’t care enough to explore other options. Neither of these things add up to “don’t _like_.” ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/34 "2004-12-12T08:44:04Z")
> [@chaoticdonkey](#): > > Bah! Ignore the numbers; they are unimportant. > > Macs are just so damn pretty. Well, you think so, I personally don’t like pastels. I like the way my box looks. I got a very nice Antec case, with a drive door cover thingy so the white drives don’t interupt the nice red case. What annoys me about a lot of people who are pro-whatever (be it Windows, Mac, or Liux) is that they feel their company/OS can do no wrong (although very few pro-windows users agree to thus.)) I’m not saying all are like this, just some. But in case any are reading, I submit to you two of Macs great failures (I don’t know anoug about linux to know if they have any.) The ‘hockey puck’ mouse for the first imac. What? Who lkes having to hold thier hand up above the mouse,getting major cramps? Didn’t anyone test these things? The first ibook (I think this was it) that had a freakin’ PYRAMID on top of it. Hello? the point of a laptop is portability, making the damn thing half a foot taller for no reason other than you think it looks pretty is dumb. ---
**Author:** ![bouv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/35 "2004-12-12T08:52:23Z")
You know, after looking online for a while, did I imagine that product? Was there ever a mac laptop that had a pyramid thing on it? Tell me I’m not crazy! ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/36 "2004-12-12T09:03:12Z")
One of my friends has a first generation iBook, and there is no pyramid on it. There is, however, some sort of extension thingie that has a vague pyramid shape to it, however. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/37 "2004-12-12T09:07:13Z")
You know why computers are complicated? Because today’s PC have OS’s and hardware that 30 years ago would have been maintained by an army of operators in a glass room, being run by those who look for the “Any” key. All the stuff for the experts screws up the normal users. You know why all your software comes preloaded these days? It’s because the manufacturers have no way of testing the tens of millions of possible hardware/software configurations without loading them and running them to see if anything breaks. So when you add stuff, there is a good chance that something will break. I never have a problem with the computer I use at work, because it is a thin client, with all the storage and complexity running on servers. I never have to upgrade, IT does. It has no state, so I can move from my office to a conference room to a drop-in room and never notice. If my computer breaks, I can throw it away and get a new one, and lose less than if my cellphone breaks. Someday we’ll stop the madness and move the complexity to those who know how to deal with it. Until then, Bill will keep adding crap into his software, and things will keep breaking. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/38 "2004-12-12T09:13:50Z")
[This auction](http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80050&item=5737256421&rd=1) has a picture of the round pyramidy-thing that my friend used with her iBook. I think it’s the AC adapter or something. ---
**Author:** ![Oilcan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Oilcan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oilcan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/39 "2004-12-12T09:49:10Z")
Speed, flexibility, reliability, price. Pick any two. Anybody remember IRQ conflicts? The first data base I used for Uncle Sam (which is probably still running and still classified) used punch cards, R2R tape, punch tape, iron ferrite memory and a staff of 40 to keep track of 1.4 million line items. It was up only about 60% of the time, so everything was “mirrored” in a duplicate system over Sneakernet (we carried the tapes down the hall to the duplicate system). It could rationalize a complex input set and give you a pretty good answer in about six hours. The setup probably cost about 120 million 2004 dollars, most of it input costs. When I sold my website and mail order business in 1998, we were using Paradox (!!) in a full relational inventory database with 4 million line items, on four networked 486-50 PC’s. In addition to the DB, these computers handled all accounting. billing, payroll and, despite my vigilance, Myst, Prince of Persia and Attack Sub 688. We bought the PC’s and networking gear second hand from an aerospace company. The whole setup, including software, cost about 12,000 dollars and was maintained by a guy studying for his MCSE and a few high school girls for data entry and queries. We fudged on data entry by scrounging internal use only data disks from wholesalers, copying the files and then using Semware macros under DOS to strip out formatting and create comma delineated files we could load directly into tables. This meant a 16 year old girl could catalog 20,000 items (220 thousand table entries) in a couple of hours. This used to take five data entry people two weeks, was full of entry errors, and before computers, it simply wasn’t done more than once a year. We did it twice a DAY. Bitch all you want about PC’s, but the progress was and continues to be amazing. We could not have handled one percent of our daily data flow without those computers, which NEVER failed for any reason other than a power outage. The new computers do seem a little less reliable, but they are incredibly fast… ---
**Author:** ![Oilcan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Oilcan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oilcan)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241/40 "2004-12-12T10:04:07Z")
[QUOTE=yosemite] I’d daresay that less than one in twenty people regularly listens to Finnish composer Jean Sibelius, That’s JAN Sibelius, you blasphemer. DerFinn [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-nothing-ever-straight-forward-with-computers/279241.md?page=3)