# Why is "O Fortuna" so bombastic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 8, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674 "2008-09-08T21:23:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/1 "2008-09-08T21:23:14Z")
So I’m sitting here listening to a random selection from my list of “happy little ditties to slaughter mice to”, and [O Fortuna](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0I8_bOAuso) from Orff’s _Carmina Burana_ comes up. Even if you don’t listen to classical music ever, you’ve probably heard _O Fortuna_; any movie with a Cosmic Horror, Artifact Of Doom or Omnicidal Maniac cues it up to go with the insane laughter and the Earth-Shattering Kaboom \*. This makes perfect sense, what with the booming tympani and the cymbals and the semi-hysterical choir. But the _Carmina Burana_ is supposed to be a tone poem \*\* based on some 13th-century Latin poetry, and if you look at the [actual lyrics](http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/orff-cb/carmlyr.php) the sentiment being expressed is “life’s a crapshoot, and you always get the short end of the stick, so let’s sit around and mope”. How did Orff get from this to _Music to Level Tokyo By_? The rest of the _Carmina Burana_ is comparatively low-key; Orff being kind of a one-hit wonder, I’m not familiar with any of his other stuff. Does he _always_ throw in an _End of the World As We Know It_ section or is this an aberration? And if the latter, anyone have a clue why? JRB - Unless they use Mozart’s [Dies Irae](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_YSEbAWA0Y), which I so totally don’t get; dramatic, sure, but about as evil as licorice. \*\* Or “scenic cantata”, same difference. ---
**Author:** ![tds1273](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df705f/32.png) [@tds1273](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tds1273)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/2 "2008-09-08T23:33:00Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > - Unless they use Mozart’s [Dies Irae](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_YSEbAWA0Y), which I so totally don’t get; dramatic, sure, but about as evil as licorice. > > \*\* Or “scenic cantata”, same difference. Red or black licorice? Because I swear, Good 'n Plenty’s are the candy coated droppings of Satan’s pet gerbil. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/3 "2008-09-09T00:08:17Z")
Text from the OP’s link: > [@](#): > > Fate - monstrous and empty, > you whirling wheel, you are malevolent, > well-being is vain and always fades to nothing, > shadowed and veiled you plague me too; > now through the game I bring my bare back > to your villainy. Hardly a cheerful little ditty, surely?! Fortuna has made at least one other explicit appearance in western music in text of this kind, as an all-powerful, unpredictable and sometimes malevolent power - the Italian song _[Fortuna Desperata](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortuna_desperata)_, heavily borrowed in the late 15th and early 16th centuries, including as a basis for much church music: > [@](#): > > Desperate fate, > iniquitous and maledicted > who blackened the good name > of a woman beyond compare. Orff was just picking up the threads of a conveniently dramatic tradition. And having a bit of fun. Don’t take the piece too seriously! ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/4 "2008-09-09T00:38:39Z")
Sheesh! Don’t judge the entirety of \*Carmina Burana \*by “O, Fortuna”! It has some naughty bits! (Well, “naughty” may be a bit of a stretch.) Here’s a translation of part of “Chramer, gip die varwe mir.” Yeah, I know. 13th-Century German does not roll so trippingly off the tongue as the Latin. Good men, love women worthy of love! Love ennobles your spirit and gives you honour. Look at me, young men! Let me please you! Or how about this, from “Amor volet undique”? Cupid flies everywhere seized by desire. Young men and women are rightly coupled. And then there are the other two pieces that, with the _Carmina Burana_, make up Orff’s _Trionfi_: _Catulli Carmina_ and _Trionfo di Afrodite_. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/5 "2008-09-09T01:56:13Z")
As with others, my question to the OP would be: Why _shouldn’t_ it be bombastic? 🙂 Actually _Carmina Burana_ has a few wonderfully loud, brash, no-holds-barred, balls-to-the-wall movements, though none as popular as “O Fortuna,” of course. My favorites are: 1. “Fortunae plango vulnera (I Bewail the Wounds of Fate)” 2. “Ecce gratum (Behold The Good and Long-awaited Spring)” 3. “Were diu werlt alle min (If The Whole World Were Mine)” 4. “In taberna quando sumus (When We Are in the Tavern)” 5. “Circa Mea Pectora (Your Beauty Draws My Sighs)” 6. “Ceni, veni, venias (Come, Come)” Even some solos are definitely not for the weak-willed singer, including 1. “Estuans interius (In Great Anger and Turmoil)” and 13. “Ego Sum Abbas (I Am the Abbot)” Of course, it also has sublimely lovely segments too, mostly in the section devoted to love (not surprisingly). The whole piece ranges from odes to natural beauty, lust, pure adoration, bawdy humor, drunken revelry, warlike ferocity, tenderness … it’s an altogether rollicking good time. Get a recording of the whole thing and let it blast! Singing CB was one of the most exhilerating experiences I had as a chorus member. Pure awesome. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/6 "2008-09-09T02:49:14Z")
Well said, **chole**! I’ve only sung parts of it, and that was fabulous. I would love to sing the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/7 "2008-09-09T03:01:20Z")
We just sang the whole thing a couple months ago. Lots of fun! I love the In Taberna part myself. 🙂 Not to be a ‘me too!’, but yeah… Why shouldn’t it be bombastic? It’s a fantastic celebration of wine, song, fortune, and romance / sex. A fantastic piece, all around. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/8 "2008-09-09T03:40:29Z")
Apparently, the music and singing are only part of the bombast, as originally conceived. It was intended as a staged work involving choreography and visual design elements. _Carmina Burana_ was intended as a staged work involving dance, choreography, visual design and other stage action. The subtitle (translated from Latin) is “Secular songs for singers and choruses to be sung together with instruments and magic images.” ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/9 "2008-09-09T03:44:12Z")
> [@freckafree](#): > > It has some naughty bits! (Well, “naughty” may be a bit of a stretch.) Not too much of a stretch. The final soprano solo (“sweet boy, I give myself to you totally”) is pretty much just an orgasm. ---
**Author:** ![WarmNPrickly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d78d45/32.png) [@WarmNPrickly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WarmNPrickly)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/10 "2008-09-09T03:45:28Z")
I sang it a few years back. All was good except for that damned “wafna” part where you seem to have to pick a pitch out of nowhere. Oh sure on the second go around most of the choir was quite solid, but that first “wafna” was a complete crapshoot. Of course it was short enough that no one in the audience realized how bad it was. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/11 "2008-09-09T03:54:21Z")
My dad and sister have sung it with a major Pittsburgh chorus. They say it’s a lot of fun. I think its recent popularity owes a lot to it being so prominently featured in John Boorman’s 1981 Arthurian movie _Excalibur_. It got a lot of exposure from that movie, and seems to have been used a lot more since then. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/12 "2008-09-09T10:07:51Z")
Trans Siberian Orchestra’s take on it. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6DhmjcXaqI) ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/13 "2008-09-09T12:21:45Z")
Every chorister, out there, who has ever sung the Carmina Burana should sit down with their score and sing with me: Oh, four tuna Bring more tuna Statuary on his knees! Some men like cheese! Hot, temperate cheese! Vimto can taste of kidneys… Lukewarm two rat Bet too cool, rat. You don’t get cheese or chicken! Bend Chips all day Hot and salty Dip sore feet Good, hot chili Saucy codpiece Ate spleen of niece! Brought up too full food in me Suck juice from moose Fun with some goose Second these so rude big knees Open bra top! Get them loved up Leaking foot when near cherries Look, they look good Dogs sure are cute Farewell to knees and berries Salsa cookies Windmill cookies They’ll give you gonorrhea… This octopus – Let’s give him boots Hand him her carburetor Lovely Torah Send me more of Potato soup and chicken What mess again Sing it, Ugly! Be good for peace monkey’s sake! ::: takes a bow ::: (Yes, this is an old parody, and no, it never “gets old”. My choirmaster passed it around to us when we were hired out to sing the CB.) ---
**Author:** ![Labor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/74df32/32.png) [@Labor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labor)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/14 "2008-09-09T13:52:08Z")
Do you want a technicl explanation of the reason for the bombast? Well, let’s see… There’s a full orchestra with lots of instruments playing at their maximum volume. There more than one choir absolutely screaming their heads right off their necks. The music’s form is built in a manner that starts off with a bang, then jumps right in with a rhythmic section that naturally leads one to become more excited. The music’s harmony is built with an open fifth in the bass (tuba, piano, harp, contra-bassoon, bass - lots of doubling there). The open fifth to modern listeners is a very powerful sound leading to levels of ecstasy not found in Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, or Brahms. ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/15 "2008-09-09T16:47:02Z")
> [@Labor](#): > > Do you want a technicl explanation of the reason for the bombast? No. I want an ontological explanation for the bombast; why is that particular bit of poetry given such apocalyptic treatment? In terms of the piece itself, the corresponding lyrics seems to me much more melancholy and defeatist than the music, and in terms of the _Carmina Burana_ _in toto_, a) although the whole thing is a bit on the larger-than-life side, the other parts seem to have a better fit between the tone of the music and the content of the lyrics (raucous drinking songs get raucous music, etc), and b) there doesn’t seem to be anything that would justify the fire-and-brimstone approach taken in _O Fortuna_ (it’s mostly about good-timing, after all). Like I said, I’m not familiar with Orff’s other works (hell, I had to check Wikipedia to make sure he _wrote_ other works), so I don’t know if he just _has_ to wrap everything up with a massive thumping bang irregardless, and my Latin and Medieval German aren’t good enough to read the [original codex](http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost13/CarminaBurana/bur_car0.html) to see if there is anything more suitably rabid he could have used. I was hoping someone out there could shed some more light on Orff’s choice than “hey, it sounds really cool” (I figured that out already 😃 ). JRB ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/16 "2008-09-09T17:59:19Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > Orff being kind of a one-hit wonder, I’m not familiar with any of his other stuff. Does he _always_ throw in an _End of the World As We Know It_ section or is this an aberration? It’s interesting that in Germany he is more famous for his influence on music teaching. When I hear “Orff” the first thing that comes to mind is a first-grader with a xylophone. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/17 "2008-09-09T19:34:03Z")
Someone told them it wouldn’t be a good hooror flick without Karloff, and they thought he said Carl Orff?? 😃 Yeah, I did steal it from Spider Robinson – but I filed off the serial number! ---
**Author:** ![Liche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@Liche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liche)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/18 "2008-09-09T21:37:15Z")
> [@](#): > > The rest of the Carmina Burana is comparatively low-key; Is it? To me it is an emotional rollercoaster embracing the full range of the human soul in all its most basic and primal states, wild, untamed and uncivilised like no other piece I know. Low-key is among the last adjectives I’d choose. Potayto Potahto. Let’s Carl the whole thing Orff. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/19 "2008-09-09T21:43:49Z")
> [@JR\_Brown](#): > > Why is “O Fortuna” so bombastic? I blame Hitler. It’s not necessarily fair to Orff, who might’ve made it bombastic regardless, but he released it at a time when the guy in charge was somebody who ate bombastic three meals a day. ---
**Author:** ![freckafree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freckafree/32/3050_2.png) [@freckafree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/freckafree)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674/20 "2008-09-09T21:54:40Z")
> [@Elenfair](#): > > Every chorister, out there, who has ever sung the Carmina Burana should sit down with their score and sing with me: > > \ > > ::: takes a bow ::: **Elenfair** , that made me snort a libation out my nose. 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-o-fortuna-so-bombastic/462674.md?page=2)