# Why Is Obama Pissing Off Catholic Voters Unneccesarily? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [February 9, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286 "2012-02-09T06:06:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/22 "2012-02-09T14:27:34Z")
I suspect that the Administration will compromise on this issue before the election. Not reverse themselves completely, but they will probably come up with some kind of arrangement that satisfies health care advocates and the church hierarchy. I’ve heard people referring to the “Hawaii model” but I don’t know what that is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/23 "2012-02-09T14:27:54Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > One would think, then, that they would object just as strenuously to military funding and capital punishment, both decidedly right-wing planks. Odd that it’s the funding of \*contraceptives \*which supposedly has their collective panties in a twist, isn’t it? But you miss a key difference. They would raise a stink, I am sure, if the government required Catholic parishes to buy an electric chair or a gurney to be used for executions. They would not raise this kind of stink if the government were, say, providing a tax credit to anyone who purchased contraceptives. The problem is requiring them to do it. A vegetarian might similarly object if you required him to slaughter a cow so that others could have beef, even while he would not object to those same people buying beef from the butcher. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/24 "2012-02-09T14:39:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If their employees were such good Catholics, they wouldn’t be using contraceptives or getting abortions and it wouldn’t matter what the policy covered. Perhaps what the Church is worried about is that their flock isn’t following their teachings as well as they would like. No. St. Bart’s hires Sarah Cohen as an office manager with no expectation that she is part of the flock or is following the church’s teachings, since the duties of an office manager are primarily non-religious. Sarah is covered by the same insurance policy as Maggie O’Shaugnessy, the fifth grade religion teacher, and Ramon Seville, the CCD teacher, who are both Catholic because those jobs have a primary religious function. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/25 "2012-02-09T14:47:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > St. Bart’s hires Sarah Cohen as an office manager with no expectation that she is part of the flock or is following the church’s teachings, since the duties of an office manager are primarily non-religious. Sarah is covered by the same insurance policy as Maggie O’Shaugnessy, the fifth grade religion teacher, and Ramon Seville, the CCD teacher, who are both Catholic because those jobs have a primary religious function. I didn’t mean to imply that all of the employees covered by the Church’s insurance would necessarily be Catholic themselves. I think it’s fair to say that the percentage of those who work for the Church are more likely to be Catholic than the population as a whole. Still, the issueof non-Catholic employees weakens the Church’s stance. They don’t like contraceptives? Don’t use them. If people of other faiths are their employees, then what business is it of theirs that they use contraception? The Church isn’t paying for them, the insurer is. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/26 "2012-02-09T14:57:55Z")
I put this post in elections because I’m not interested in the merits of the ruling. I’m looking at it strictly in cynical political terms. You know, the same cynical political attitude that I have read repeatedly on the Dope that is the reason Obama keeps dumping progressive ideas. In this case, you have a group of potential voters, Catholics. Do you quash this ruling or support it? If you quash it, what you have is a continuance of the status quo – the voters who would have voted for you will still vote for you (presumably, mostly the ones who favor contraception in their personal lives) and the ones who would not have voted for you, will not vote for you. By supporting the ruling, Obama raises the issue, but more importantly, he leaves himself vulnerable to Republican claims that he’s bullying the Catholic Church with his Presidential mojo. I know that such arguments are false, but elections typically are not won with rational arguments. (Remember: I’ll have a beer with George Bush, not John Kerry?) My thought is that Obama is cynically using the issue to crank up the Republican social conservatives and get them out in support of their man Santorum, knowing the independent morons (not saying all independents are morons, but a lot of them are, and those are the ones the parties focus on) can easily be brought back into the Democratic fold by quashing the regulation once the Republican nominee has been chosen. Got nothing to do with the underlying issue. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/27 "2012-02-09T15:06:27Z")
If Obama is smart enough to play this up now just to get Santorum nominated (or just to weaken Romney more) then that’s pretty damn brilliant. In some ways it is a winning move to make the election more about social issues than economic ones. Especially if the social issue is contraception and the opponent is Rick Santorum. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/28 "2012-02-09T15:11:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But you miss a key difference. > > They would raise a stink, I am sure, if the government required Catholic parishes to buy an electric chair or a gurney to be used for executions. > > They would not raise this kind of stink if the government were, say, providing a tax credit to anyone who purchased contraceptives. The problem is requiring them to do it. A vegetarian might similarly object if you required him to slaughter a cow so that others could have beef, even while he would not object to those same people buying beef from the butcher. Where, exactly, does the money for electric chairs or execution gurneys come from? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/29 "2012-02-09T15:12:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > They would raise a stink, I am sure, if the government required Catholic parishes to buy an electric chair or a gurney to be used for executions. They’re required to pay sales tax which, at least in some states, presumably goes to fund electric chairs. Now they’re required to pay for some types of insurance, and some of that money will go to pay for contraceptives. In neither case is the Church directly funding that which they find objectionable. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > My thought is that Obama is cynically using the issue to crank up the Republican social conservatives and get them out in support of their man Santorum, knowing the independent morons (not saying all independents are morons, but a lot of them are, and those are the ones the parties focus on) can easily be brought back into the Democratic fold by quashing the regulation once the Republican nominee has been chosen. Meh. I never find these “12-dimensional chess” theories particularly convincing. It posits a pretty close to inhuman level of insight on how the electorate will react to a given thing that I don’t think politicians (or anyone else) has. There’s no way to know a head of time if the boost to Santorum will be larger then the hit to Obama, or that a more successful Santorum candidacy will work out in Obama’s favor. Despite a lot of theories to the contrary, no real politician does these crazy machivellian bank shots to gain political advantage. The Obama admin is enforcing this policy because they think encouraging contraception is a public good and one the public supports, even for Church affiliated groups. As a general rule, I think people underestimate the extent to which politician do what they say they’ll do, and do them for the reasons they say they are doing them for. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/30 "2012-02-09T15:14:20Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Especially if the social issue is contraception and the opponent is Rick Santorum. So condoms will protect us from Santorum? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/31 "2012-02-09T15:16:21Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I put this post in elections because I’m not interested in the merits of the ruling. I’m looking at it strictly in cynical political terms. You know, the same cynical political attitude that I have read repeatedly on the Dope that is the reason Obama keeps dumping progressive ideas. > > In this case, you have a group of potential voters, Catholics. Do you quash this ruling or support it? If you quash it, what you have is a continuance of the status quo – the voters who would have voted for you will still vote for you (presumably, mostly the ones who favor contraception in their personal lives) and the ones who would not have voted for you, will not vote for you. By supporting the ruling, Obama raises the issue, but more importantly, he leaves himself vulnerable to Republican claims that he’s bullying the Catholic Church with his Presidential mojo. I know that such arguments are false, but elections typically are not won with rational arguments. (Remember: I’ll have a beer with George Bush, not John Kerry?) > > My thought is that Obama is cynically using the issue to crank up the Republican social conservatives and get them out in support of their man Santorum, knowing the independent morons (not saying all independents are morons, but a lot of them are, and those are the ones the parties focus on) can easily be brought back into the Democratic fold by quashing the regulation once the Republican nominee has been chosen. > > Got nothing to do with the underlying issue. I don’t think this was the administration’s initial goal, but I think it’s evolved into one of those rare happy accidents involving contraception, so I would imagine (hope?) they’ll run with it for a while longer. Firing up the social conservatives will definitely make things even more interesting for a while in the GOP’s circular firing squad. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/32 "2012-02-09T15:19:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Where, exactly, does the money for electric chairs or execution gurneys come from? Sales of Girl Scout cookies. A national disgrace, in my opinion. As the delightful Ms Maddow pointed out last time, this isn’t about playing to the Catholics or the Protestants, its about women voters. And it works. Because it ought to. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/33 "2012-02-09T15:35:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As the delightful Ms Maddow pointed out last time, this isn’t about playing to the Catholics or the Protestants, its about women voters. And it works. Because it ought to. Women voters and other voters who want to see Democratic politicians stand up on these kinds of issues rather than constantly pulling back. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/34 "2012-02-09T15:37:05Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Meh. I never find these “12-dimensional chess” theories particularly convincing. It posits a pretty close to inhuman level of insight on how the electorate will react to a given thing that I don’t think politicians (or anyone else) has. There’s no way to know a head of time if the boost to Santorum will be larger then the hit to Obama, or that a more successful Santorum candidacy will work out in Obama’s favor. Despite a lot of theories to the contrary, no real politician does these crazy machivellian bank shots to gain political advantage. I agree 100%. Couldn’t have said it better. But I think some in this thread are missing an important point. Few Catholics in the US follow the no birth control rule. Catholics even tend to line up on the abortion issue pretty much the same as the rest of the population. But that doesn’t mean they support forcing the Church, itself, to go against its own teachings. The much touted Latino vote is going to be very important, and guess what religion most Latinos are. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/35 "2012-02-09T15:43:11Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Someone on Wednesday’s Hardball claimed the objection was not to coverage, but to the mandate that there be no deductible or co-pay. In other words, the employer must pay 100% of the cost for contraceptives. > > I don’t see why that makes such a difference, but that’s what they said. This is the part that makes no sense to me. Is paying for part of it less sinful in their minds than paying for all of it? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/36 "2012-02-09T15:45:13Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > This is the part that makes no sense to me. Is paying for part of it less sinful in their minds than paying for all of it? I like Chris Matthews but he is far from the sharpest knife in the MSNBC drawer. I was baffled by this myself. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/37 "2012-02-09T15:46:41Z")
**Bricker** , I noticed you didn’t give your own opinion nor that of other Catholics you know. Is this the sort of thing that would take an otherwise Obama supporter and make them vote Republican, or, at least, stay home? I only single out **Bricker** because I know he’s Catholic and he voted for Obama in 2008. Anyone else who fits the requirements, feel free to speak up, too. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/38 "2012-02-09T15:49:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I agree 100%. Couldn’t have said it better. I’ll third that. > [@](#): > > The much touted Latino vote is going to be very important, and guess what religion most Latinos are. Isn’t the Latino vote always supposed to be important? The stance Republicans have taken on immigration in recent years is likely to drive away Latino voters in particular, and in that light Obama may have decided that this won’t hurt him or won’t offset the votes he stands to gain on that issue. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/39 "2012-02-09T15:52:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > **Bricker** , I noticed you didn’t give your own opinion nor that of other Catholics you know. Is this the sort of thing that would take an otherwise Obama supporter and make them vote Republican, or, at least, stay home? > > I only single out **Bricker** because I know he’s Catholic and he voted for Obama in 2008. Anyone else who fits the requirements, feel free to speak up, too. I meet the criteria and this issue makes me more, not less, inclined to vote for Obama. I’m a cafeteria Catholic and disagree with the Church on gay marriage, contraception, and abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/40 "2012-02-09T15:56:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But that doesn’t mean they support forcing the Church, itself, to go against its own teachings. [It](http://publicreligion.org/research/2012/02/january-tracking-poll-2012/) might not mean that, but the majority of Catholics do in fact support the new rule, even when the polling question is phrased to stress that it would force Catholic affiliated institutions to provide insurance plans that cover contraceptives. > [@](#): > > The much touted Latino vote is going to be very important, and guess what religion most Latinos are. “Non-white Catholics” are more likely to support the new rule then their caucasian co-religionists. I suspect that while Latino’s are more likely to be religious Catholics, they’re also more likely to be poor, and support for policies that make it economically easier for them to avoid having more children then they want over-rides concern for what the local Bishop thinks. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286/41 "2012-02-09T16:08:26Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I like Chris Matthews but he is far from the sharpest knife in the MSNBC drawer. I was baffled by this myself. Is he the only one who’s said this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-obama-pissing-off-catholic-voters-unneccesarily/612286.md?page=3)