# Why is online poker de facto illegal in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 8, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340 "2015-09-08T15:01:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/1 "2015-09-08T15:01:59Z")
Looking for a GQ answer but I will understand if a mod moves it if it turns into GD replies. I know that it is not poker per se that is illegal, just banking transactions but as I pointed out during the Kentucky Derby, online gambling on the race was apparently allowed. Now with DraftKings we can gamble on fantasy football and some people are talking about the possibility of online sportbooks. So why is poker still the odd one out? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/2 "2015-09-08T15:09:32Z")
Actually, poker itself, even social poker, is illegal in many jurisdictions. Not sure how it varies by state, but California used to have an old, old law against “stud horse poker” - and since no one could say for sure what that was, all forms of poker were tightly controlled and illegal outside of licensed card rooms. (I think that’s changed in recent years.) So at least one reason is that people in a town, county or state where poker is illegal could participate. It’s rarely just poker, BTW, but all forms of online gambling that are barred. The usual argument is that poker is somehow exceptional and “a game of skill,” not gambling. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/3 "2015-09-08T15:52:11Z")
As an online activity, I’d think that Interstate Commerce provisions would apply, and regulation of online gaming would be a federal matter. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/4 "2015-09-08T16:10:42Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > …The usual argument is that poker is somehow exceptional and “a game of skill,” not gambling. Not the way I play it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/5 "2015-09-08T16:23:37Z")
Maybe this > **[United States v. Scheinberg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Scheinberg)** > > United States v. Scheinberg, No. 1:10-cr-00336 (2011), is a United States federal criminal case against the founders of the three largest online poker companies, PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker and Cereus (Absolute Poker/Ultimatebet), and a handful of their associates, which alleges that the defendants violated the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) and engaged in bank fraud and money laundering to process transfers to and from their customers. A companion civil case, United Sta On ... > [@](#): > > United States v. Scheinberg, 10 Cr. 336 (2011), is a United States federal criminal case against the founders of the three largest online poker companies, PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker and Cereus (Absolute Poker/Ultimatebet), and a handful of their associates,[1] which alleges that the defendants violated the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) and engaged in bank fraud and money laundering in order to process transfers to and from their customers.[1] A companion civil case, United States v. PokerStars, et al., 11 Civ. 2564 (2011),[2] includes Full Tilt and Cereus as defendants and seeks the forfeiture of approximately $3 billion in assets belonging to the companies.[3] After the indictment was unsealed on April 15, 2011, a date quickly dubbed Black Friday by the online poker community,[4][5] PokerStars and Full Tilt stopped offering real money play to their United States customers.[6] Three years after the start of the poker boom in 2003, the U.S. Congress passed UIGEA in order to extend existing gambling laws into cyberspace. The law made processing payments for illegal online gambling a crime; however, the defendant companies remained in the U.S. market in the belief that the law did not cover poker. A former payment processor for the companies turned state’s evidence after initially being charged with violating UIGEA himself. On September 20, the civil suit was amended claiming individual fraud by Messrs. Howard Lederer, Chris Ferguson and Rafael Furst.[7][8] Actually its only illegal to play poker for real money. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/6 "2015-09-08T17:45:56Z")
Anyone who thinks poker is not a game of skill, I would love to get into a game with you. I think, and this is just my opinion, it was banned early on, partly because it was a game of skill and poor players would lose their shirts to the detriment of their families. Prohibition was based on similar considerations. True story: when I was in grad school, the physics department was located on the floor below the math department. There were two physics grad students who played head-to-head poker incessantly. It turned out that one of them was financing the other one’s grad school education. This couldn’t happen in a game of luck, say tossing coins fairly. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/7 "2015-09-08T17:58:40Z")
There is a long running dispute about backgammon. Whether it is a game of skill or luck. Many States have ruled that it is gambling not skill. > [@](#): > > Wagers on Backgammon ARE now considered ILLEGAL in the following States of America: > South Carolina, South Dakota, Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Nevada, New Jersey, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, Arkansas, Delaware, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, Maryland, Montana, Tennessee, Vermont > [Backgammon Betting Online | Legal online gambling on backgammon](http://www.goonersguide.com/betting_on_backgammon.html) ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/8 "2015-09-08T19:05:50Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Actually its only illegal to play poker for real money. That’s because if there’s not valuta on the table, it’s not poker. > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Anyone who thinks poker is not a game of skill, I would love to get into a game with you. But I’ve memorized the odds, dude. You’d be toast. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: 😃 > [@bob\_2](#): > > There is a long running dispute about backgammon. Whether it is a game of skill or luck. Many States have ruled that it is gambling not skill. That’s because money is wagered on it, and it’s almost trivially easy to hustle and cheat. Even many hardcore money players are oblivious to the idea of cheating. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/9 "2015-09-08T21:26:58Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Anyone who thinks poker is not a game of skill, I would love to get into a game with you. I think, and this is just my opinion, it was banned early on, partly because it was a game of skill and poor players would lose their shirts to the detriment of their families. People lose their shirts in all manner of types of gambling. They lose their shirts to slot machines, bingo, blackjack and craps. I know a guy who lost $70,000 on scratch tickets. Those are NOT games of skill; you cannot win in the long run. Online poker’s banned because it was to the benefit of moneyed interests to do so, and so they paid legislators to ban it. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/10 "2015-09-08T21:36:41Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Online poker’s banned because it was to the benefit of moneyed interests to do so, and so they paid legislators to ban it. I assume you mean brick and mortar casinos. While I wouldn’t argue, there are a LOT of things online that more traditional business and market segments hate, and I don’t see widespread bans based on, say, Target out to get Amazon. Maybe because it’s a “vice” - but I think the reasons are deeper than Indian Casino money. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/11 "2015-09-08T23:50:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > People lose their shirts in all manner of types of gambling. They lose their shirts to slot machines, bingo, blackjack and craps. I know a guy who lost $70,000 on scratch tickets. Those are NOT games of skill; you cannot win in the long run. > > Online poker’s banned because it was to the benefit of moneyed interests to do so, and so they paid legislators to ban it. They’re games of luck with expectation less than 1 since the house takes a cut. A true game of luck is just a 50-50 proposition. I’ll take the house on any of those games. In poker, you do have to overcome the rake, but it is game of skill. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/12 "2015-09-09T00:12:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > People lose their shirts in all manner of types of gambling. They lose their shirts to slot machines, bingo, blackjack and craps. I know a guy who lost $70,000 on scratch tickets. Those are NOT games of skill; you cannot win in the long run. > > Online poker’s banned because it was to the benefit of moneyed interests to do so, and so they paid legislators to ban it. Also, note that all of the other forms of gambling you name are not, AFAIK, legal to play online in the US, either. Legality of gambling in the US varies by state, and the banning of online poker just brings it in line with those other forms of gambling. (Note: I’m not commenting on whether or not that entire policy is a good idea or not.) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/13 "2015-09-09T01:14:32Z")
But isn’t betting on horse-racing or fantasy football luck and not skill? What makes these distinctive from poker? And my understanding is that online poker is not illegal (at least with offshore casinos) but what is illegal are banking transaction to those casinos. ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/14 "2015-09-09T02:46:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > People lose their shirts in all manner of types of gambling. They lose their shirts to slot machines, bingo, blackjack and craps. I know a guy who lost $70,000 on scratch tickets. Those are NOT games of skill; you cannot win in the long run. > > Online poker’s banned because it was to the benefit of moneyed interests to do so, and so they paid legislators to ban it. Which moneyed interests benefited? ---
**Author:** ![denquixote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@denquixote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/denquixote)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/15 "2015-09-09T02:49:13Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But isn’t betting on horse-racing or fantasy football luck and not skill? What makes these distinctive from poker? > > And my understanding is that online poker is not illegal (at least with offshore casinos) but what is illegal are banking transaction to those casinos. I think they are still illegal in those jurisdictions that do not allow them to take place locally. The banking transactions are merely the method of enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/16 "2015-09-09T03:51:30Z")
> [@denquixote](#): > > Which moneyed interests benefited? Casinos. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/17 "2015-09-09T05:11:43Z")
Nearly all games of all sorts have _some_ element of chance. Some games are _entirely_ games of chance (like betting on the toss of a coin), while many games involve elements of both skill and chance. I was under the impression that “gambling” was typically defined to include only games that are entirely chance; but if there is any element of skill involved, however little, then anti-gambling laws don’t apply to such games. Does anyone know if this is correct? So it seems that everyone agrees that poker entails _some_ degree of skill. Why is it illegal anywhere, then? ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/18 "2015-09-09T05:39:53Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I was under the impression that “gambling” was typically defined to include only games that are entirely chance; but if there is any element of skill involved, however little, then anti-gambling laws don’t apply to such games. Does anyone know if this is correct? > > So it seems that everyone agrees that poker entails _some_ degree of skill. Why is it illegal anywhere, then? This is not true, at least in Illinois. > [@](#): > > (720 ILCS 5/28-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 28-1) > Sec. 28-1. Gambling. > (a) A person commits gambling when he or she: > (1) knowingly plays a game of chance or skill for money or other thing of value. > **[Illinois General Assembly - Illinois Compiled Statutes](https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/fulltext.asp?DocName=072000050K28-1)** > > Illinois Compiled Statutes Table of Contents ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/19 "2015-09-09T05:47:08Z")
So professional sports like tennis and golf (i.e. playing for a purse) are gambling in Illinois? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340/20 "2015-09-09T11:24:55Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So professional sports like tennis and golf (i.e. playing for a purse) are gambling in Illinois? Nope, it come under one of the exceptions in subsection b > [@](#): > > (b) Participants in any of the following activities shall not be convicted of gambling: > (1) Agreements to compensate for loss caused by the > happening of chance including without limitation contracts of indemnity or guaranty and life or health or accident insurance. > (2) Offers of prizes, award or compensation to the > actual contestants in any bona fide contest for the determination of skill, speed, strength or endurance or to the owners of animals or vehicles entered in such contest. There are lots more exceptions., but the point of the originally quoted section is to define gambling as including games of skill. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-online-poker-de-facto-illegal-in-the-us/730340.md?page=2)