Fine, but morphine is basically free. Seriously. Costs nothing. At least outside of the US, where I gather all drugs are ludicrously expensive for whatever reason. And one can function perfectly well in a decent job with an opioid addiction.
So that would be someone of lesser moral character. People with poor moral character are quire likely to become junkies as they are more likely to be taking drugs in excess to begin with. Doesn’t mean that at it’s a pre-requisite - so I made and continue to make the assumption that Chefguy’s son had/has good moral character
You keep downplaying the risks, so why not provide some evidence. This is GQ, after all?
Maybe there are some high functioning opioid users. Are they a significant fraction of all such users? On balance, do they compensate for the economic and personal damage caused by the users who aren’t high functioning? And can you actually provide any evidence that withdrawal can be entirely handled in under a week, as you earlier claimed?
It’s well and good to have personal beliefs but you can’t expect other people to accept them just on your say-so.
Also, opiate addiction brings a person down (into crime, etc.) much more quickly than alcohol addiction. (Meth–a “white people’s” drug, does so, too, but I suppose the historical connection with opium dens, “The East,” ect. aren’t there to bring it into society’s consciousness in the same way.)
And why are the vast majority of opioid and meth dealers also users? Because you need a larger amount of fast cash to get the fix, so dealing is often the most convenient way to do it. Once you start buying, you’re already talking to the people who can get you into dealing.
So even though alcohol destroys more lives–and is much more dangerous to detox from–it doesn’t have the same reputation, because you can get away with it for much longer without getting caught up in all of these disreputable activities.
Well as far as opiates like heroin, the answer is a definite NO. The high-tolerance that many addicts had before stopping for a period of time quickly disappears. This is actually responsible for most heroin overdoses. The addict will use the amount they are accustomed to using in order to achieve the desired effects, except now their bodies no longer have the high tolerance for the drug and the amount is enough to overdose.
I am a chronic pain patient and have taken high doses of morphine and percocet for years. There were a few unfortunate times that I ran out of my prescription, and for one reason or another was unable to fill it. This usually happened on a Friday and I couldn’t get in to see the doctor until Monday (I certainly do my best to avoid this, for the pain is hell) These type of drugs cannot be called or faxed in to the pharmacy, so I had to do without. The weekend was horrible pain wise, but I felt absolutely zero withdrawal symptoms. I don’t know if I just am lucky enough to not “need” the drug (except of course of pain control) or that I didn’t go long enough without the drug to experience withdrawal.
On another note I have never, even once gotten any kind of high or buzz from the boatloads of pain killers that I have taken over the years. From Fentynal to Vicodin. The only one that has every given me a high was when they injected Demerol into me at the hospital when I was first injured. I have had Demerol since that time and it had no effect of giving me a buzz. Perhaps my body works a bit different than most.
I disagree with this. The tolerance for the pain killing aspect may revert back a bit but killing pain is not what most vicodin junkies take opioids for. After years of being clean from opiate addiction I now take it now for back pain. My prescription dose relieves the pain but does not provide the feelings of euphoria I once experienced. The two or three times I tried to take enough to get that back I just got massive headaches. The glory days of opiate nirvana are gone for me. Thankfully.
Nope, your body is working perfectly normally and it sounds like your meds are dosed appropriately. With appropriate dosing and use, you shouldn’t get high. It’s when you’re *not *in pain that you get high if you take painkillers. If you’re in pain, and you get high when you take your meds, you need your dose lowered until your pain is gone (or at least tolerable) but you’re not high.
I spent two days sharing a hospital room with a methodone addict who had missed his meds and dialysis program. He was in sheer hell. He was threatening to kill people, yelling that they were trying to kill him and in great psychic pain. Methadone was his treatment for herion addiction.
I was speaking of heroin. There is absolutely no question that the tolerance in heroin-users evaporates very quickly upon stopping using; even for as short as a few days. This phenomenon is responsible for the vast majority of heroin overdoses, as the user will return to using the amounts of the drug that they had been using prior to stopping. When they do this, their bodies are not able to handle the amounts and they fall into respiratory failure.
Your moralistic high ground stance is unwarranted. Moral character has little to do with addiction. My son started taking it as a prescription for back pain. When the prescriptions dried up and the pain didn’t, he resorted to finding it elsewhere, which was in much higher dosages. If his wife hadn’t sent out a call for help, he would have continued down his path of self-destruction.
As for morphine being nearly free: in the US, a bottle of brand name aspirin runs $5.00, a bottle of something stronger like Excedrin around $8.00. Do you really think an opiate is going to be cheap as an OTC product?
You provide them. Everything I’m saying is well known.
Almost certainly not.
What does this mean? While there are probably some people who can only do what they do under the influence of opioids, we’re probably talking poets like coleridge or something. So of course they don’t. When did I say they did? And why does it matter?
I said no such thing. Indeed I highlighted the risks of PAWS in my first post, where I mentioned the months of suffering. I spoke only of the cold turkey part, which with anything with a decently short half life (basically not methadone, not buprenorphine) really does just last a few days.
There is no reason morphine should cost any more than aspirin. Honestly, it’s dirt cheap. Opium poppies are a weed, and purifying the morphine from them costs nowt. Extra costs caused by the US system I have no idea about, and they are basically irrelevant because no one is disputing that being an opioid addict these days is a runiously expensive situation. It absolutely would not be in a free, minimally regulated, market though. Fun fact: heroin and aspririn are both brand names of Bayer, who had to hand them over in the Treaty of Versailles.
And I won’t accept that addiciton makes someone act immoraly who would never do so otherwise; what it will do is make someone who would be tempted to act immorally, but refrain from doing so, act immorally. And I don’t believe your son acted immorally, necessarily - or at least not heniously so. And how do you know I haven’t been an opioid addict? Hint: I totally have
Morphine’s pretty cheap, as drugs go. Not as cheap as aspirin, but I’ve paid more for really good prenatal vitamins.
But I think the “lesser moral character” jab is a cheap shot. No one knows why some people can use and even become physically addicted and yet still maintain a “normal”, even successful life and some can’t. We don’t know why some people can do it for a while, some people can seemingly do it forever (why isn’t Keith Richards dead yet?!), and some people can’t even do it for a day. To assume it’s because someone lacks in moral character is pretty boldly presumptuous.
But just because your son couldn’t, don’t doubt that some can. Hell, we’ve got at least one physician and I think more on the SDMB who used to be functional drug addicts…at least until they weren’t any more and then they quit.
It’s not a cheap jab WhyNot. I am not saying that anyone becoming an addict has low moral character. But one who would steal from their patients needing pain relief (and I differentiate this from Chefguy’s son - as I said stealing from your employer, while reprehsnible, is not in at all the same league) is scum. Sorry, but that’s the truth.
I don’t believe that one cannot change. Whatever you do, even serial killing, there is hope for you. But if someone steals pain killing drugs from their patients, or mugs old women, or various other things that some addicts do they are scum at that time at least and I personally find it insulting as someone who was also an addict to have it said that I could have done such a thing. Say whatever you like about my weaknesses in becoming addicted in the first place and I will have no quarrel with you; but imply that I, or anyone else, would be forced to be malicious to others and I have to speak out - I could never have done that sort of thing. I would and in a couple of cases did go cold turkey instead. Addiciton simply doesn’t change your moral character - it just changes how imporant drugs are to you.
At least according to wiki (so to be taken with a grain of salt), while opium production costs are lower in places it is not illicit, morphine production is actually cheaper in Australia than India or Afghanistan. I’ll also note than aspirin isn’t going to cost $56 /kg to make. But maybe you’re exaggerating a little bit?
Also, your assertion that addiction to opiates doesn’t change behavior is gainsaid by direct observation and fairly extensive records dating back at least a century. I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but if you’re going to make assertions that are contradicted by most other folks in the thread, you should be able to back it up. And, no, your single example is not proof of a trend. Sure, a few high functioners may exist, but that doesn’t disprove anything anybody else has posted.
$56/kg? Have you any idea!? It would be a ludicrously tolerant morphine addict to take a gram. Typical theraputic use is five to ten milligrams.
And I would be surprised if you can find me any **scientfic ** documentation of considerable personality change. It just doesn’t happen - addicts will obviously be drug seeking, and drug seeking leads to a bunch of changes, which are indeed predictable - so in that sense it does. But so what? That’s a change in priorities more than anything.
Or do you think addiction leads to stealing cars and commiting burglary? If you think about, that’s such an insane idea that you need to justify it. Take a look at obbn in this thread. When was the last time he stole a purse at knifepoint?
To keep things in perspective however caffeine and nicotine can be bought at any corner store and they also are incredibly physically addictive, with lasting effects for months to years. Nicotine in particular seems to have a incredible hold on addicts, I’ve seen people that haven’t smoked for decades start again when under emotional stress. I had an elderly family member(lifelong smoker) in hospital with the highest dose appropriate patch, yet they were almost jumping out of their bed and plotting how to sneak outside or in the toilet to smoke.
I did not really want to start a great debates thread, as I was mostly interested how opiates become so taboo and horrible.
Believe me, nicoteine is significantly easier physical-effects wise than opioids (and caffeine is just a joke, that’s ridiculous - I’ve never heard of anyone complaining about it apart from computer nerds).
There are psychological effects from giving up nicoteine that one would get from giving up any habit really. But they don’t at all compare to giving up opioids. The only real problem is the social acceptbility of nicoteine (and the socially accepted usage of ciggys for stress aleviation) which means there are greater demands on the ex-addict to use it, if you see what I mean.
I agree with this completely. Nicotine addiction may appear to be an equal, if not worse problem for a person than opiate addiction but that rests largely on the ubitiquity and acceptance of nicotine in our world; not the nature of the addiction itself. You can’t go buy a bottle of Vicodins at the nearest corner gas station. And Vicodins haven’t been glorified in society for decades as not just an acceptable habit but a cool one. Once the opiate addict quits, the drugs are basically out of their life. Not so for the nicotine addict; they must endure exposure to the drug basically everywhere they go because cigarettes and nicotine are an ingrained part of our culture.
“To run amuck is, to get drunk with opium, then seizing some offensive weapon, to sally forth from the house, kill the person or persons supposed to have injured the Amock, and any other person who attempts to impede his passage, till he himself is taken prisoner or killed on the spot.”
“During the time that Captain Cook was at Batavia, several instances of the like kind occurred; and he was informed by an officer, whose duty it was to take such offenders into custody, that hardly a week passed in a year in which he was not obliged to exercise his authority.”
The Voyages of Captain Cook
My current bus time reading material.
Sounds like a party, eh?
