# Why is "Oriental" Offensive, when "Asian" is not? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 13, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870 "2016-09-13T16:35:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/41 "2016-09-13T21:56:48Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > This. Oriental is a label that assumes The West to be the center of everything. Just like Native Americans have rejected Indian, people kind of take issue with being called whatever Europeans decided they should be called. Did you know that the native Japanese word for Japan–_“Nippon”_ or _“Nihon”_–means “Land of the Rising Sun”? “Orient” is derived from the Latin _oriri,_ meaning "to rise; “Occident” means “to fall,” or, of the sun, “to set.” ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/42 "2016-09-13T22:02:18Z")
My parents immigrated to the US from Pakistan. I’m an Asian-American. I actually get a bit riled when people use Asian to exclusively refer to the far Eastern part of Asia. Having people tell me I’m not Asian is quite a treat (I like to reply with “What continent is Pakistan on?”) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/43 "2016-09-13T22:03:33Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > I don’t think I’ve heard the term “Oriental” used referring to people in Australia, except ironically: it’s occasionally used to refer to grocery shops or furniture shops. That’s what I thought; so pretty much the same as North America. > [@TSBG](#): > > For that matter, isn’t the notion of “Asia” itself a European construction? Asia is a myth along with the round earth and the moon landing! Did you mean that there is no reason why country X is in Europe and country Y in Asia considering they’re essentially the same land mass except that culture X is less of an “other”? Sure. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/44 "2016-09-13T22:22:03Z")
The really Eurocentric thing is that we have only one word to describe everyone from Mongolians to Bangladeshis as if there were no difference between any of these, whereas we can make some quite subtle distinctions between different sorts of Europeans (Scandinavian, Mediterranean, Slavic…) based on, comparatively speaking, hardly any difference at all ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/45 "2016-09-13T23:01:09Z")
To answer the OP - it’s the euphemism treadmill at work. In a few years people are bound to wake up and realize that “Asian” is problematic for many of the same reasons as “Oriental”. We’ll replace it with a more “sensitive” term with the same flaw as its predecessors - the need to refer to all the slant-eyed people with one blanket term. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/46 "2016-09-13T23:26:40Z")
> [@edwards\_beard](#): > > From what I was told years ago by an Asian friend, the word “Oriental” is used to describe objects, like an Oriental rug…not people. By using the term Oriental, it can be seen as objectification. I was told that too. In 1983 by my Japanese American girl friend. She thought it was a silly distinction. In any event, this is far from something new. It goes back at least a generation ago. ---
**Author:** ![tuesdayweld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@tuesdayweld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tuesdayweld)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/47 "2016-09-14T00:56:23Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > all the slant-eyed people. Now _that_ is offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Graymalkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/35a633/32.png) [@Graymalkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Graymalkin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/48 "2016-09-14T02:30:54Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > Just like Native Americans have rejected Indian, A sizable contingent of Native Americans are perfectly okay with Indian. I teach history in Cherokee County, Oklahoma, and use Native American and Indian interchangeably, with nary an objection. My guess is that American Indians may mildly object to the term Native Americans as lumping them, in politically correct style where the palefaces determine once again what they are to be called, in with all other hyphenated Americans in the pc terminological brew and so are just as happy to continue on with “Indian.” I, myself, am basically a knee-jerk pc guy. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/49 "2016-09-14T05:13:57Z")
> [@Graymalkin](#): > > A sizable contingent of Native Americans are perfectly okay with Indian. I teach history in Cherokee County, Oklahoma, and use Native American and Indian interchangeably, with nary an objection. My guess is that American Indians may mildly object to the term Native Americans as lumping them, in politically correct style where the palefaces determine once again what they are to be called, in with all other hyphenated Americans in the pc terminological brew and so are just as happy to continue on with “Indian.” > I, myself, am basically a knee-jerk pc guy. The problem with “Native American” is that “native” is derived from _nasci,_ the Latin for “to be born.” Well, I was born in America, specifically Indianapolis, Indiana, but I am (primarily) Caucasian. There are many millions of Caucasians, and people of other descent, who are such “Native Americans.” I admit that “Indian” in this sense is actually a misnomer, but “Native American” is not really a correct term either. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/50 "2016-09-14T06:16:35Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > the need to refer to all the slant-eyed people with one blanket term. _What_ need? And, assuming you mean epicanthic folds, how does either Asian or Oriental include the Khoi-San or Inuit or Sami or Finns? But more importantly … “slant-eyed”? Seriously?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/51 "2016-09-14T07:37:32Z")
As with many racial epithets, it’s arbitrary, based on history and differs from region to region. Yes “colored” is offensive and “people of color” is not, but things may change. If the term “handsome dude” was used as a slur in Whereverland, then it’s a slur, end of. It’s irrelevant what the etymology or original meaning of the term was. When I was last in the UK the term “Oriental” was still OK. Note that in the UK “Asian” would normally be taken to mean Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi as this is a more common ethnic minority there. So if you’re not saying Oriental you’d have to be a bit more descriptive e.g. “East Asian”. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/52 "2016-09-14T09:19:55Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > The problem with “Native American” is that “native” is derived from _nasci,_ the Latin for “to be born.” Well, I was born in America, specifically Indianapolis, Indiana, but I am (primarily) Caucasian. There are many millions of Caucasians, and people of other descent, who are such “Native Americans.” I admit that “Indian” in this sense is actually a misnomer, but “Native American” is not really a correct term either. Why is this a “problem”? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/53 "2016-09-14T10:27:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > _What_ need? > And, assuming you mean epicanthic folds, how does either Asian or Oriental include the Khoi-San or Inuit or Sami or Finns? > > But more importantly … “slant-eyed”? Seriously?:rolleyes: Ah, we’re dealing with a slow-reading irony-impaired crowd, I see. I’ll clarify. Whether you’re using “Asian” or “Oriental”, you’re trying to refer to a constructed race. In fact I regard “Asian” as even worse because it’s not only offensive, but not even descriptive. If we’re looking for precise words, what you’re trying to say would be covered by “Mongoloid,” and I’m sure we all see the problems with that. Would you point to an Arab person and say “that Asian person over there?” Of course not. You mean the person with the ivory skin, straight coarse black hair, and epicanthic folds over their eyes. Probably from Northeast Asia, but it could be Southeast Asia or even Indonesia, because it’s not really important for your purposes. That’s why I point out that this is just an example of the euphemistic treadmill. “Mongoloid” gives way to “Oriental” which gives way to “Asian” which will keep giving way to something else until we realize maybe the really offensive thing is trying to group a bunch of unrelated people by their physical characteristics. So if the term “slant-eyes” bothers you, then you should be just as bothered by the euphemisms for it, because they’re basically the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/54 "2016-09-14T12:32:03Z")
I’ve made a point of using Asian for the past several years, after someone called me out in an after work gathering. We were out for drinks after a training session, and were discussing the training and some of the other participants. I was mentioning something one guy said or did, and referred to him as “the oriental guy.” Some woman went off on me - turns out her husband is Asian. I’ve always thought Asian too nonspecific to be useful. I recall a TV show where they had introduced a number of characters, and then through the magic of DNA they said the suspect was Asian. Well, I didn’t realize it necessarily meant the east Asian appearing woman, as opposed to the brownish Indian/Arab/whatever guy. And then, do you identify someone by their geographical or religious/ethnic origin? Arab vs Muslim? Of course I was raised in a less enlightened time on the NW side of Chicago, where folk were identified (and self identified) as Polish, Italian, Greek… Of course Brazil nuts were casually called nigger toes, so that was not necessarily a better arrangement. If need be I pretty much will refer to people as white, black, hispanic, east Asian. I have no idea how to discern between Indian/Pakistani, or Arab/Persian. On occasion I may say something like “middle eastern appearing.” But as a general rule, I don’t use any such terms other than with close friends/family, assuming some offenderati will be poised to take issue with anything I say. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/55 "2016-09-14T12:32:45Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > The problem with “Native American” is that “native” is derived from _nasci,_ the Latin for “to be born.” Well, I was born in America, specifically Indianapolis, Indiana, but I am (primarily) Caucasian. There are many millions of Caucasians, and people of other descent, who are such “Native Americans.” I admit that “Indian” in this sense is actually a misnomer, but “Native American” is not really a correct term either. And white people are pink, and black people are brown, and "people of color’ is fine but “colored people” is offensive, and “All Lives Matter” means that black lives don’t matter but “Black Lives Matter” means all lives matter. And flammable and inflammable mean the same thing. Language is arbitrary - it refers to what it refers to because we agree that it refers to what it refers to. Or we don’t agree, as the case may be. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/56 "2016-09-14T13:26:33Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > assuming some offenderati That right there is probably the most demeaning term in your post. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/57 "2016-09-14T13:49:10Z")
> [@edwards\_beard](#): > > I used to work with a Japanese guy who told us all to call him Nuprin, because he was little, yellow and different. Did he go by the nickname Badger by any chance? Old acquaintance who used that line a lot. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/58 "2016-09-14T13:56:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > That right there is probably the most demeaning term in your post. How so? Not trying to pick a fight, honestly, but why do you find the use of the term “offenderati” demeaning? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/59 "2016-09-14T14:02:55Z")
I had a friend in college named Jonathan. I called him Jon a lot, then one day he told me he hated being called Jon. So I called him Jonathan from then on. Now, how is Jon so different than Jonathan? They’re basically the same words. I can go on and on about how being called Jon makes no difference in any objective way… or I can just call him Jonathan because he hates being called Jon. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/60 "2016-09-14T14:07:55Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Whether you’re using “Asian” or “Oriental”, you’re trying to refer to a constructed race. In fact I regard “Asian” as even worse because it’s not only offensive, but not even descriptive. And why, pray tell, would there be any need to be generically descriptive of anyone? > [@](#): > > If we’re looking for precise words, what you’re trying to say would be covered by “Mongoloid,” and I’m sure we all see the problems with that. The main problem with Mongoloid as a racial typography is that it’s wrong. The pejorative usage related to Downs is of only secondary concern. > [@](#): > > Would you point to an Arab person and say “that Asian person over there?” No. I tend not to need to use racist descriptors for individuals in everyday speech. > [@](#): > > Of course not. You mean the person with the ivory skin, straight coarse black hair, and epicanthic folds over their eyes. Speak for yourself. I’m much more likely to use it of someone with skin darker than my copper tones, curly hair and non-folded eyelids. Because I see way more Tamils than I do Han Chinese, on the regular. Which completely skips over my question of why you think there’s a need to group people by physical characteristics at all. > [@](#): > > So if the term “slant-eyes” bothers you, then you should be just as bothered by the euphemisms for it, because they’re basically the same thing. “Asian” isn’t a euphemism, it’s a geographical descriptor of population ancestry unrelated to any unscientific race concept, and I’ll happily use it for everyone from an Andaman Islander to a Chukchi - without regard to their eye shape, their hair coarseness or the closeness of their skintone to elephant byproducts. “Epicanthic fold” is _not_ a euphemism, and I’ll use it when it’s appropriate to describe someone’s eyes. I will never characterise groups by their eye shape as a racial characteristic, though. “slant-eyed people” is about as likely to pass through my lips as “thick-lipped people” or “dark-skinned people”, as far as a descriptive term for any grouping of humans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870.md?page=4)