# Why is "Oriental" Offensive, when "Asian" is not? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 13, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870 "2016-09-13T16:35:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Elemenopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elemenopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elemenopy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/101 "2016-09-20T15:07:52Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Where I went to school in NY in the late 60’s the Hispanics kids were from Puerto Rico (statistically some in the City were from other Hispanic groups but Mexicans haven’t been numerous in NY until much more recently) and wanted to be called ‘Spanish’. Our teacher (liberal, virulently anti-Vietnam War, up to the minute on PC for that time) also instructed us that was the correct word and not to even say Puerto Rican. I seem to remember a push to use the term “Chicano/Chicana” when I was a kid. Whatever happened to that? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/102 "2016-09-20T15:17:50Z")
> [@Elemenopy](#): > > I seem to remember a push to use the term “Chicano/Chicana” when I was a kid. Whatever happened to that? Chicano referred to Mexicans so was never a general term like ‘Hispanic’ or ‘Spanish’ are/were supposed to be. It seems to have faded but without being designated offensive by the relevant authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/103 "2016-09-20T15:30:17Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > But all three of those, Oriental, negro and colored, _are_ viewed as offensive under PC. The best attempt at a rational explanation IMO would be that since they were used in the past, and since (western) society’s past views/behavior on race or nationality are now viewed as benighted, those benighted views somehow rub off onto those words, somehow imply to the listener that the speaker has or accepts those old views. A weak explanation, but I haven’t seen better. > > The explanation that Oriental is ‘eurocentric’ fails IMO. The words for westerners and Asians in major Asian languages refer to the same concept that they are the ‘east’ and Europe the ‘west’. Nor is PC applied uniformly over non-English western languages either. Still acceptable non-English words sometimes translate literally to now politically incorrect English words. Styles in language change. The terms now unfashionable may have been the polite alternatives to ruder words–that are still heard. It’s polite to use the word currently preferred. If you want to be rude, bleat about “PC.” ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/104 "2016-09-20T15:33:03Z")
Is [Oriental Dreamworks](http://www.oriental-dreamworks.com/) offensive? It’s the Asian studio of Dreamworks. I thought it odd they used the Oriental term because I thought it was offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Elemenopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elemenopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elemenopy)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/105 "2016-09-20T15:37:48Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Chicano referred to Mexicans so was never a general term like ‘Hispanic’ or ‘Spanish’ are/were supposed to be. It seems to have faded but without being designated offensive by the relevant authorities. Thanks; I hadn’t thought of it in years until this thread. I just remember it being used in a few textbooks, etc. in the 80s, but I wasn’t sure which group it specifically belonged to, nor whether it was considered off-color now. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/106 "2016-09-20T15:43:26Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Styles in language change. The terms now unfashionable may have been the polite alternatives to ruder words–that are still heard. > > It’s polite to use the word currently preferred. If you want to be rude, bleat about “PC.” If you want to be rude, characterize other people’s statements as ‘bleating’. 🙂 I see no problem with change in fashion. I do see a problem when it extends to taking offense at what’s not fashionable, or even imputing bad motives from the unfashionable. There need be no rational explanation why fashion has changed. There must IMO be better ones when the person is morally impugned for not keeping up. And as I laid out, this IME is not limited to different fashions in different languages, the whole concept of PC (which IMO is a reasonable short designation for the case where offense is taken at the unfashionable in terminology) is largely absent in some other languages. There’s something about _English speaking_ society now with this, IME, not as general as you imply, not as innocent as ‘be polite’. As far as actually good reason (for taking offense) you’ve kind of repeated my ‘bleating’ post in your point about ‘offensive’ terms having once been more polite alternatives to intentionally offensive terms. But why logically does that make the then polite terms now _offensive_, not dated, offensive. Likewise I don’t get the logic of your coda ‘the more rude terms may still be used’. So, how does that make the older polite terms offensive? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/107 "2016-09-20T18:27:33Z")
Personally, I always thought “Oriental” sounded cool. A bit shady and dangerous, but cool nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/108 "2016-09-20T22:39:52Z")
Who needs the First Amendment anyway? :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/109 "2016-09-20T23:04:10Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Who needs the First Amendment anyway? :mad: I fail to see how the first amendment has anything to do with the discussion - it has nothing to do with whether or why certain terms are offensive. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/110 "2016-09-21T00:12:55Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Who needs the First Amendment anyway? :mad: Do you even know how the First Amendment works? In what way is the Government restricting speech? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/111 "2016-09-21T03:11:29Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > Is [Oriental Dreamworks](http://www.oriental-dreamworks.com/) offensive? It’s the Asian studio of Dreamworks. I thought it odd they used the Oriental term because I thought it was offensive. Well it’s not offensive in China for example, where _dongfang_ (the closest translation of Oriental) is a very common part of place and organization names, and is then often accompanied by, or translated into, the English word. None of which is surprising. As said already, what terms are offensive varies from place to place because it’s based on culture and history. If I visit the US, I need to adjust to the reality that “oriental” is an offensive term there and not use it. And similarly an Asian-American visiting China needs to recognize the term has none of the connotations she may associate with it. That said, yeah I guess it’s a problem whenever movies made by Oriental DreamWorks are screened in the US. Multinational companies usually do a lot of research to ensure brand and model names are not offensive anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/112 "2016-09-21T05:02:27Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > I fail to see how the first amendment has anything to do with the discussion - it has nothing to do with whether or why certain terms are offensive. I would sure like to know who these Junior Psychologists are that are deciding what is and what is not offensive! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/113 "2016-09-21T06:45:08Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I would sure like to know who these Junior Psychologists are that are deciding what is and what is not offensive! No, it’s on you. You brought up the first amendment without bothering to say why it’s relevant here. Of course it isn’t – free speech doesn’t mean your words are incapable of causing offense – but if you want to try to defend what you said, go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/114 "2016-09-21T06:52:15Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No, it’s on you. > You brought up the first amendment without bothering to say why it’s relevant here. > Of course it isn’t – free speech doesn’t mean your words are incapable of causing offense – but if you want to try to defend what you said, go ahead. Shades of Newspeak from _1984._ ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/115 "2016-09-21T06:52:17Z")
Threads on this question appear sporadically. I still don’t see why “Oriental” is offensive. And I lived in the Orient for almost 25 years. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/116 "2016-09-21T08:46:02Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Threads on this question appear sporadically. I still don’t see why “Oriental” is offensive. And I lived in the Orient for almost 25 years. Perhaps that’s why the threads keep coming? Let’s look at an example like “paki” in the UK. As it’s just short for Pakistani, it shouldn’t cause offense if the only issue were etymology, say. But it was a word usually prefixed with “fucking-” or said after spitting at someone I.e. the racist’s term of choice. More important than that even, is it is now never used except by people trying to cause offense. If you’re someone that just arrived in Britain you may be forgiven the first time but once you know it causes offense you’re expected not to use the word. The same goes for “oriental” in the US ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/117 "2016-09-21T10:37:12Z")
[quote=“dougie\_monty, post:114, topic:765870”] Shades of Newspeak from _1984._ Um, what? First you show that you’re ignorant about the basics of the First Ammendment and now you show that you completely missed the point of 1984. Would you care to explain how the First Ammendment applies because I am really curious about that. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/118 "2016-09-21T20:25:57Z")
[quote=“hajario, post:117, topic:765870”] > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Shades of Newspeak from _1984._ > > Um, what? First you show that you’re ignorant about the basics of the First Ammendment and now you show that you completely missed the point of 1984. Would you care to explain how the First Ammendment applies because I am really curious about that. Gladly. I feel hampered in freedom of speech when some intangible entity tells me that various words turn out to be “politically incorrect”–a term which itself is inimical to the First Amendment. I had a government teacher in high school who told us that the First Amendment is inapplicable to entities other than national or state (or local) government. Still, the general tone of the Ninth and Tenth (and Fourteenth) Amendments suggests a very liberal application of the liberties in the First Amendment. What I mean by an “intangible entity” will become clear if you convert the posts in this thread so that the passive voice is everywhere replaced with the active voice–showing clearly Who does What. I sense that there is some secret Thought Police ready to stigmatize me for failing to speak or write in their PC manner. I want to make it clear that I don’t make an effort to demean anyone. I had my share–maybe more than my share–of epithets directed at me when I was growing up, by people who never even met me and to whom I had never said a word, and had never seen me before. A psychiatrist with whom I have had sessions told me that I can be a victim of abuse from others with no words said or no action of any kind having occurred between me and them. My mention of _1984_ was because of the “Big Brother Is Watching You” tone, suggesting “You must act and speak as we tell you to or you will be punished.” ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/119 "2016-09-21T20:50:47Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > See, long ago as a kid I read the books of the 1920s-30s adventurer Richard Halliburton, especially his **Book of Marvels** , which was a tour of the world’s coolest shit divided into two parts, the Occident and the Orient. > > I agree with **Tired and Cranky**. I don’t use “Oriental” to describe those from the eastern half of the globe, seeing as most of my friends object. > > But I have no problem being lumped in with the Africans and the Europeans and the other Americans as an “Occidental.” I think it’s kinda cool in a retro way. Like zeppelins and bathyspheres. Ike, not only do you and I have the same retro-cool mindset regarding Occidental and bathyspheres, you’re just about the only other Richard Halliburton fan I’ve ever met, IRL or online. Oddly, I think I’ve read all his books _except_ Book of Marvels. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/120 "2016-09-21T21:14:05Z")
“Oriental” and “Occidental” were the ordinary words in Latin for “east” and “west,” for etymologically obvious reasons. If you have an old dollar bill, printed, say, before 1970, you will notice this abbreviation on the seal: 'THESAUR. AMER. SEPTENT. SIGIL." This stands for “Thesauri Americae Septentrionalis Sigillum,” or “Seal of the Treasury of North America.” _Septentrion-_ meant “north” and referred to “The Great Bear” constellation, or “The Big Dipper.” It literally means “seven plowing oxen.” “Septentrional” and “Meridional” (derived from "the Latin for “midday,” because the sun is in the southern sky at that time, in the Northern Hemisphere) were the common Latin words for “north” and “south.” Trivial? Sure. So is the issue of “Oriental” and “Occidental.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870.md?page=7)