# Why is "Oriental" Offensive, when "Asian" is not? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 13, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870 "2016-09-13T16:35:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/161 "2016-09-25T03:16:00Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Perhaps a term borrowed from a life science such as anthropology, or social science, might do, unless it is three or more syllables long, or otherwise sounds pretentious and affected. “Oriental” has four syllables. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/162 "2016-09-25T03:46:19Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Yeah and like I say some people don’t like it if you fart in a confined space. If “there’s no pleasing some people”, then just go for it. Saying “Oriental” and farting in an enclosed space are hardly comparable. I’m simply not buying your snake oil. My Oriental wife says that goes double for her. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/163 "2016-09-25T05:05:55Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Saying “Oriental” and farting in an enclosed space are hardly comparable. I’m simply not buying your snake oil. My Oriental wife says that goes double for her. Fine; then pick one of the other examples I gave which were purely verbal. As for your wife, my GF is Chinese, and she was not even aware that Oriental is offensive in some parts of the world. But so what? Why would group A not being offended somehow trump, or invalidate, group B being offended? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/164 "2016-09-25T05:11:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > […] > And [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19650060&postcount=152) is the post where someone asks how I think we should refer to people from the region of earth that includes India, Pakistan, Bangladesh et all, and I simply reply South Asian. Moving northward, here are the ten most southern countries in Asia: Indonesia, Timor Leste, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Thailand, The Philippines, Sri Lanka, India, Vietnam, Burma/Myanmar. I think you are referring to that which geologists call “The Indian Subcontinent.” Would you call these people “Indian Subcontinentals”? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/165 "2016-09-25T05:14:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > […]For example **dougie monty** earlier said he’d continue using “Indian” as a description of native americans, simply because it’s fewer syllables. In point of fact I prefer “American Indian” as a quite formal term, and I gave an explanation upthread as to why I don’t consider “Native American” a really adequate term. It had nothing to do with the number of syllables. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/166 "2016-09-25T06:01:45Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > In point of fact I prefer “American Indian” as a quite formal term, and I gave an explanation upthread as to why I don’t consider “Native American” a really adequate term. It had nothing to do with the number of syllables. And to hell with 'em if the “American Indians” are offended, right? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/167 "2016-09-25T06:54:02Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > And to hell with 'em if the “American Indians” are offended, right? I fail to see how this is an offensive term, unless a misnomer has somehow morphed into a pejorative over time, by some intangible process. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/168 "2016-09-25T08:03:12Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Moving northward, here are the ten most southern countries in Asia: > Indonesia, Timor Leste, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Thailand, The Philippines, Sri Lanka, India, Vietnam, Burma/Myanmar. I think you are referring to that which geologists call “The Indian Subcontinent.” Would you call these people “Indian Subcontinentals”? Latitude is not the only factor; countries which are to the east are considered South-East Asia. Anyway, [according to the CIA World Factbook](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/wfbExt/region_sas.html), “South Asia” is Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Maldives, Nepal, India, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka. Which is…what I said. > [@](#): > > In point of fact I prefer “American Indian” as a quite formal term, and I gave an explanation upthread as to why I don’t consider “Native American” a really adequate term. It had nothing to do with the number of syllables. Post #78: > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Using “Native American” instead of “Indian” is pretentious: never say in three syllables what you can say in six. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/169 "2016-09-25T17:16:31Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Latitude is not the only factor; countries which are to the east are considered South-East Asia. > > Anyway, [according to the CIA World Factbook](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/wfbExt/region_sas.html), “South Asia” is Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Maldives, Nepal, India, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka. Which is…what I said. > > Post #78: “[C]ountries which are to the east are considered South-East Asia.” I would like you to change this sentence from the passive voice to the active so I can know exactly _who_ considers them to be south. Years ago the Baltimore Colts were in the “Western Conference” of the NFL, and a designation of “South Asia” countries as south when they are _not_ south from a latitude point of view makes no more sense than the NFL’s logic. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/170 "2016-09-25T17:23:39Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Using “Native American” instead of “Indian” is pretentious: never say in three syllables what you can say in six. > I observe a few maxims of grammar in this regard: > Prefer the short word to the long. > […] Yes, I prefer the short word to the long, but sometimes using the shorter word is not feasible. Case in point: I once had a yard customer who was from the Bombay area. After my work that day was done I told him a favorite joke, which involved an Indian–and to clarify the matter I used the term _American_ Indian. (I will post the joke in this thread if you like–it’s a good one and has no reflection on anyone’s ethnicity.) The customer liked it; he did not consider it demeaning to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/171 "2016-09-25T20:18:34Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I fail to see how this is an offensive term, unless a misnomer has somehow morphed into a pejorative over time, by some intangible process. Now you’re getting it. It’s the difference between denotation and connotation, and it shifts over time. Also, you tell racist jokes to your customers? Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/172 "2016-09-25T20:33:42Z")
To expand, the terms “person of colour”, “negro”, “African American”, “black” and “coon” all denote exactly the same thing; the connotations, though, are very different. And yes, the semantics shift over time: in 1966, using the term negro was perfectly acceptable. Two generations later, it’s seen as patronising to the point of insulting: it’s assumed that if you use the word of 50 years ago, you have the attitudes of 50 years ago. Also, don’t make racist jokes to customers at work: see above under “attitudes of 50 years ago”. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/173 "2016-09-25T21:53:51Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > To expand, the terms “person of colour”, “negro”, “African American”, “black” and “coon” all denote exactly the same thing; the connotations, though, are very different. And yes, the semantics shift over time: in 1966, using the term negro was perfectly acceptable. Two generations later, it’s seen as patronising to the point of insulting: it’s assumed that if you use the word of 50 years ago, you have the attitudes of 50 years ago. > > Also, don’t make racist jokes to customers at work: see above under “attitudes of 50 years ago”. Two of those terms are dysphemisms for a third, yes. But PoC and African American don’t meant the same thing as black. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/174 "2016-09-26T02:40:40Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > “[C]ountries which are to the east are considered South-East Asia.” > I would like you to change this sentence from the passive voice to the active so I can know exactly _who_ considers them to be south. Years ago the Baltimore Colts were in the “Western Conference” of the NFL, and a designation of “South Asia” countries as south when they are _not_ south from a latitude point of view makes no more sense than the NFL’s logic. You mean as well as the CIA Factbook ref in the same post? Well, also [the UN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_geoscheme_for_Asia). FWIW I don’t share your surprise or incredulity that an area of Asia is designated South-East, and that South is pretty much just the Indian Subcontinent. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/175 "2016-09-26T02:51:37Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Yes, I prefer the short word to the long, but sometimes using the shorter word is not feasible. Case in point: I once had a yard customer who was from the Bombay area. After my work that day was done I told him a favorite joke, which involved an Indian–and to clarify the matter I used the term _American_ Indian. (I will post the joke in this thread if you like–it’s a good one and has no reflection on anyone’s ethnicity.) The customer liked it; he did not consider it demeaning to anyone. Ah so you do prefer using Indian? So why did you “correct” me upthread? > [@dougie\_monty](#): > > In point of fact I prefer “American Indian” as a quite formal term You can’t have it both ways. If you’re saying “Indian” then I was right to say you’re continuing to use a term most people acknowledge as offensive. If you’re saying “American Indian” it makes a mockery of you pointing out earlier that “Native American” is too long and therefore pretentious. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/176 "2016-09-26T04:59:44Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Now you’re getting it. It’s the difference between denotation and connotation, and it shifts over time. Also, you tell racist jokes to your customers? Wow. Don’t YOU put words in my mouth! That is the exact opposite of what I said, in case you failed to read the whole sentence. Perhaps you would like me to report you? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/177 "2016-09-26T05:02:15Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Ah so you do prefer using Indian? So why did you “correct” me upthread? > > You can’t have it both ways. > If you’re saying “Indian” then I was right to say you’re continuing to use a term most people acknowledge as offensive. > If you’re saying “American Indian” it makes a mockery of you pointing out earlier that “Native American” is too long and therefore pretentious. You didn’t pay attention, did you? _I felt it necessary in this instance to make a distinction._ Are you, too, afflicted so as not to be able to read my complete sentences?! Besides, I gave a reason other than length why Native American is not really suitable. I went back to the actual meaning of the word in Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/178 "2016-09-26T05:39:42Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Don’t YOU put words in my mouth! That is the exact opposite of what I said, in case you failed to read the whole sentence. Perhaps you would like me to report you? Hey, knock yourself out. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/179 "2016-09-26T06:14:01Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > You didn’t pay attention, did you? _I felt it necessary in this instance to make a distinction._ Are you, too, afflicted so as not to be able to read my complete sentences?! What about my response makes you think I misparsed you? You said _“sometimes using the shorter word is not feasible”_; implying most of the time you prefer the shorter form i.e. “Indian”. \*“I felt it necessary in this instance \*”[to say “American Indian”] also implies the same thing. So what do you think is incorrect about my inferring you prefer to use “Indian”? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2016, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870/180 "2016-09-26T10:12:03Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Moving northward, here are the ten most southern countries in Asia: > Indonesia, Timor Leste, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Thailand, The Philippines, Sri Lanka, India, Vietnam, Burma/Myanmar. I think you are referring to that which geologists call “The Indian Subcontinent.” Would you call these people “Indian Subcontinentals”? That was going to be my observation. “South Asia” covers places like Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia. IMO Southeast Asia is Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos - basically most of the places formerly known as “French Indochina” (or in the sphere of influence of same). You could probably argue the Philippines are included there too, in a broad sense. I’m trying to find a politcally correct way to say “Sorry, but people from the Indian Subcontinent don’t fit into anything I’d classify as Asian”. I’d suggest they are their own grouping, but I have no idea what the best descriptor for that grouping would be - “subcontinental” being technically accurate but carrying that awkward “sub-” prefix which some folks would, perhaps understandably, probably not be too keen on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-oriental-offensive-when-asian-is-not/765870.md?page=10)