# Why is Pakistan such a basketcase? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411 "2011-01-04T20:27:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/1 "2011-01-04T20:27:41Z")
I’ve always been curious as to why Pakistan in particular since 1947, has in contrast to India, found it difficult to remain stable. Why is Pakistan appearing now to be coming apart at the seams? What precipitated all this terrorism and spread of Islamism which threatens the very foundations of Pakistani society, and what can be done to constitute Pakistan as a resillient confident democratic state? Can anything be done now? ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/2 "2011-01-05T03:49:17Z")
India has experienced regional insurrections as well, quite notably the Sikh one. A major difference between Pakistan and India is that Americans have no particular attitude to the various factions of Indian elite (e.g. who loses sleep over Tamil squabbles with the dominant Hindu north?) whereas in Pakistan one of the factions is “evil” because they are either Islamists or just plain old nationalists who don’t like seeing an alien superpower try mess with the Pakistani nuclear arsenal. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/3 "2011-01-05T04:53:01Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > India has experienced regional insurrections as well, quite notably the Sikh one. And, lately, [Maoists.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxalite) (What does that even **mean** any more?!) ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/4 "2011-01-05T05:11:32Z")
Pakistan started out with the belief that Muslims wouldn’t get a fair shake under Hindu rule. The problem was this is all Pakistan had going for it, religion. The first obvious problem was East Pakistan, now Bangladesh. But at least most of East Pakistan was all Bengali. West Pakistan was further divided into groups. All those groups had in common was Islam. They didn’t like each other much other than their religion. Pakistan never achieved a level of “nationhood” that India has. Yes, India has had problems but overall, it has maintained the idea of India. You will note Pakistan was independent first, by a few minutes, so as not to give the impression that Pakistan left India but was founded first as an independent state. Pakistan was aligned with the West and was constantly frustrated by the West’s refusal to help it in it’s struggle with India. After East Pakistan left to become Bangladesh is when Pakistan realized it couldn’t count on the West to come to it’s aid. Add to this India’s developing nukes a few years later, this led to an “obsession” with Pakistan in getting nukes, as they feared an attack by India and the realization that the West wasn’t going to help. This drain on resources to achieve the nukes, plus a lack of unity among the parts of Pakistan has led to the conditons today that created the mess it is. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/5 "2011-01-05T06:10:20Z")
I agree that part of it is perception. India is continually rocked by terrorists and separatists movements, but we tend to spin it as “bumps in the road of Asia’s oldest democracy,” rather than persistant systematic problems with India itself. We say “Eh, India is huge, diverse, and democratic- of course chaos is going to happen now and then. They’ll figure it out.” When we look at Pakistan, however, we tend to see their problems as something inherent to the nature of Pakistani society. We see it as something wrong with Pakistan itself. If the Naxalites were active in Pakistan, they’d probably be all over the US news. But in India we can dismiss them as an anachronistic group of little importance, despite their huge and very disruptive presence. Of course this isn’t the only or even the primary factor, but I think it’s an important one. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/6 "2011-01-05T14:46:53Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > India has experienced regional insurrections as well, quite notably the Sikh one. > > A major difference between Pakistan and India is that Americans have no particular attitude to the various factions of Indian elite (e.g. who loses sleep over Tamil squabbles with the dominant Hindu north?) whereas in Pakistan one of the factions is “evil” because they are either Islamists or just plain old nationalists who don’t like seeing an alien superpower try mess with the Pakistani nuclear arsenal. Strange that, seems like you’re trying to shift blame onto foreigners for Pakistans lack of ability to govern itself. A reaction I’m not surprised at in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/7 "2011-01-05T15:22:58Z")
Americans have historically paid more attention to Pakistan because it was a Cold War ally, while India was not (and maintained relatively little economic interaction with the US). More recently, the obvious reason Americans pay more attention to instability in Pakistan than in India is because Pakistani instability is believed to be contributing to terrorist efforts that directly affect the US. Indian instability, by contrast, has been perceived to pose little direct danger to Americans thus far. Also, the fact is that India’s government has indeed been more stable at its roots. Despite high-profile assassinations, its system of government has endured since independence, whereas Pakistan has switched a few times between civilian and military rule. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/8 "2011-01-05T15:34:33Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I agree that part of it is perception. India is continually rocked by terrorists and separatists movements, but we tend to spin it as “bumps in the road of Asia’s oldest democracy,” rather than persistant systematic problems with India itself. We say “Eh, India is huge, diverse, and democratic- of course chaos is going to happen now and then. They’ll figure it out.” > > When we look at Pakistan, however, we tend to see their problems as something inherent to the nature of Pakistani society. We see it as something wrong with Pakistan itself. If the Naxalites were active in Pakistan, they’d probably be all over the US news. But in India we can dismiss them as an anachronistic group of little importance, despite their huge and very disruptive presence. Considering that half of that terrorism in India is directly supported by the Pakistani government that’s a bit unfair. In any event, the terrorism and separatism that rocks India never actually destabilized the national government. Conversely, the government of Pakistan is endlessly vacillating between constitutional crises and _coups d’etat._ That isn’t to say India doesn’t have huge problems, of course, but its government is as stable as any third world nation’s is likely to be. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/9 "2011-01-05T21:02:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And, lately, [Maoists.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxalite) (What does that even **mean** any more?!) I wouldn’t downplay relevance of Maoism in the region. It was just in 2006 when [Maoists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Nepal_(Maoist)) won the 10 year long [civil war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War) in neighbouring/Hindu Nepal; the government was brought down, remade into a democracy and the weakened Monarchy was abolished. Despite what we westerners commonly think, communism really hasn’t died off in Asia; it is a powerful force for many poor villagers who live the lives of serfs. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/10 "2011-01-06T01:32:31Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > India has experienced regional insurrections as well, quite notably the Sikh one. > > A major difference between Pakistan and India is that Americans have no particular attitude to the various factions of Indian elite (e.g. who loses sleep over Tamil squabbles with the dominant Hindu north?) whereas in Pakistan one of the factions is “evil” because they are either Islamists or just plain old nationalists who don’t like seeing an alien superpower try mess with the Pakistani nuclear arsenal. The reason Americans and every other nation loses sleep is because the violence is exported out of Pakistan and that same violence makes it an unstable nuclear power. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/11 "2011-01-06T01:45:53Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I wouldn’t downplay relevance of Maoism in the region. It was just in 2006 when [Maoists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Nepal_(Maoist)) won the 10 year long [civil war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War) in neighbouring/Hindu Nepal; the government was brought down, remade into a democracy and the weakened Monarchy was abolished. > > Despite what we westerners commonly think, communism really hasn’t died off in Asia; it is a powerful force for many poor villagers who live the lives of serfs. But, what **does** “Maoism” mean to them? What are they hoping for out of the Revolution? Centralized state economic planning, or collective farms, or very un-Communist, rather [Distributist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism), land reform, or what? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/12 "2011-01-06T11:38:53Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > I wouldn’t downplay relevance of Maoism in the region. It was just in 2006 when [Maoists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Nepal_(Maoist)) won the 10 year long [civil war](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepalese_Civil_War) in neighbouring/Hindu Nepal; the government was brought down Interesting aside: Both sides in the Nepalese Civil War were extensively armed with old Lee-Enfield bolt-action rifles, some of which were nearly a century old. It’s still a standard-issue rifle to police officers in remote parts of India. We’re not talking about the most modern places in the world, basically. Back on topic, I agree with people saying “India’s so big there’s going to be some malcontents somewhere” as a reason for the lack of concern; there are still many divides in India which date back to the Mughal days (and even earlier) and a lot of it is either too complicated, too foreign, or too part of the background noise for it to get a lot of attention to the average Westerner. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/13 "2011-01-06T13:30:14Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’ve always been curious as to why Pakistan in particular since 1947, has in contrast to India, found it difficult to remain stable. Why is Pakistan appearing now to be coming apart at the seams? > What precipitated all this terrorism and spread of Islamism which threatens the very foundations of Pakistani society, and what can be done to constitute Pakistan as a resillient confident democratic state? Can anything be done now? Consider the NorthWest Frontier Provinces of Pakistan (now Khyber Pakhtunkwa). They have never been “governed” in the ordinary sense of the word. That area is essentially a breeding ground for extreme Islam, and extreme Islam does not take lightly to anything but Islam as a governing principle. Since it’s a religion and not a malleable philosophy, its adherents claim their religious principles above any civil law. And for Islam, the expression of those principles includes things like subjugation of women to very restrictive codes, or executing “blasphemers” (in theory anyone who disagrees with core Islamic doctrine, but in practice anyone who disagrees with the mullahs). It’s true that Pakistan’s borders in general were pretty artificial at Partition, and there is a long and interesting story there; it’s tough enough to get stability with strange borders and displaced peoples, but it’s really Islam that has made it impossible to govern. There is an ongoing permanent tension between the educated elite who govern the country and the uneducated (again, because of conservative Islamic principles about who gets to be educated and what they get to learn besides the Qur’an) crowd festering in Khyber Pakhtunkwa. Most successful countries are able to put civil agreements first and personal religion second; this has not been the case in Pakistan (it’s tough enough to do so in any predominant Muslim country). When the personal religion calls for refusing to educate the masses in independent thought, and attempting to kill or confound any scoundrels with even vaguely moderate modernizing voices, and when there is a huge geographic area producing 20 million or so similarly-leaning peeps, it’s very hard to remain politically stable. The assassination of Salman Taseer (or any of the other assassinations in Pakistan) is a stark reminder to the West of the difference between Islamic extremism and Western thought. Islamic “extremism” is not some sort of small but vocal minority in Pakistan. It’s millions upon millions of religious adherents convinced that Islam needs to be defended violently and vigorously. Imagine trying to get by with [this sort of thing](http://tribune.com.pk/story/99313/hardline-stance-religious-bloc-condones-murder/) in any Western democracy. And no, there is no solution, because Islam retains such a tight control over its progeny. There is no hope of Pakistan becoming a democratic state in the ordinary Western sense. At least not for a few hundred years. I think a reasonable comparison for Islam in Pakistan (and many other countries around the world) is with Christianity for the Crusaders. Except, of course, Pakistan has enough intelligentsia to make nukes instead of swords. (Unfortunate, but not unexpected, that one of theirs is responsible for nuclear proliferation to rogue countries such as North Korea and Iran.) ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/14 "2011-01-06T14:06:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, what **does** “Maoism” mean to them? What are they hoping for out of the Revolution? Centralized state economic planning, or collective farms, or very un-Communist, rather [Distributist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism), land reform, or what? IMO, power. They want to violently overthrow the entire Indian political system. Since India is a democracy (although riddled with problems) the government is, by nature, versatile and even slowly responsive to large scale discontent. [ul] [li]Shiks want a separate ‘homeland?’ Give them [Punjab](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab,_India). [/li][li]Kashmir [wants to separate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_conflict) and join Pakistan? Grant them [limited autonomy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_370).[/li][li]People are griping about sharing a state with others? [car](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jharkhand)[ve](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihar) and [spl](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telangana)[it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andhra_Pradesh) some more new ones.[/li][li]Their political system even contains states run by [comm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bengal_state_assembly_election,_2006)[unists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala), [Cen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujarat)[ter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himachal_Pradesh)[-Ri](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karnataka)[ght](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chhattisgarh)/[Cen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharashtra)[ter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andhra_Pradesh)[-l](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi)[eft](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himachal_Pradesh) Nationalists, [Regionalists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu), etc. [/li][/ul]Their system is really as ‘big tent’ as one can be -this is a people who spawned a religion with an uncountable number of Gods so why would you think politics would be any simpler :). So while the Indian government is known for being slow but versatile; the Naxalitles just want none of it. They don’t want to be appeased by token sops. They want power, they want control. Remember communists are fond of thinking that a socialist revolution is simply inevitable and that in the meantime the state will try any amount of appeasement to keep it from coming. However, this is simply my opinion… ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/15 "2011-01-06T15:50:32Z")
[This is a](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_India) good resource for Indian political parties at the state and federal levels. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/16 "2011-01-06T15:55:24Z")
Salman Taseer had made himself many enemies, it was a matter of time who got to him. “Liberals” hated him as much as “Islamists” did. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/17 "2011-01-06T15:58:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Considering that half of that terrorism in India is directly supported by the Pakistani government that’s a bit unfair. > > In any event, the terrorism and separatism that rocks India never actually destabilized the national government. Conversely, the government of Pakistan is endlessly vacillating between constitutional crises and _coups d’etat._ > > That isn’t to say India doesn’t have huge problems, of course, but its government is as stable as any third world nation’s is likely to be. No its perfectly fair. RAW has been very busy inside Pakistan. > [@](#): > > The formation of RAW was based on the belief that Pakistan was supplying weapons to Sikh terrorists, and providing shelter and training to the guerrillas in Pakistan. Pakistan has accused the Research and Analysis Wing of sponsoring sabotage in Punjab, where RAW is alleged to have supported the Seraiki movement, providing financial support to promote its activities in Pakistan and organizing an International Seraiki Conference in Delhi in November-December 1993. RAW has an extensive network of agents and anti-government elements within Pakistan, including dissident elements from various sectarian and ethnic groups of Sindh and Punjab. Published reports allege that as many as 35,000 RAW agents have entered Pakistan between 1983-93, with 12,000 are working in Sindh, 10000 in Punjab 8000 in North West Frontier Province and 5000 in Balochistan.\*\* As many as 40 terrorist training camps at Rajasthan, East Punjab, Held Kashmir, Uttar Pradesh and other parts of India are run by the RAW’s Special Service Bureau\*\* (SSB). > **[Research and Analysis Wing \[RAW\] - India Intelligence Agencies](https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/india/raw.htm)** ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/18 "2011-01-06T16:01:18Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Consider the NorthWest Frontier Provinces of Pakistan (now Khyber Pakhtunkwa). They have never been “governed” in the ordinary sense of the word. That area is essentially a breeding ground for extreme Islam, and extreme Islam does not take lightly to anything but Islam as a governing principle. Since it’s a religion and not a malleable philosophy, its adherents claim their religious principles above any civil law. And for Islam, the expression of those principles includes things like subjugation of women to very restrictive codes, or executing “blasphemers” (in theory anyone who disagrees with core Islamic doctrine, but in practice anyone who disagrees with the mullahs). > > It’s true that Pakistan’s borders in general were pretty artificial at Partition, and there is a long and interesting story there; it’s tough enough to get stability with strange borders and displaced peoples, but it’s really Islam that has made it impossible to govern. There is an ongoing permanent tension between the educated elite who govern the country and the uneducated (again, because of conservative Islamic principles about who gets to be educated and what they get to learn besides the Qur’an) crowd festering in Khyber Pakhtunkwa. > > Most successful countries are able to put civil agreements first and personal religion second; this has not been the case in Pakistan (it’s tough enough to do so in any predominant Muslim country). When the personal religion calls for refusing to educate the masses in independent thought, and attempting to kill or confound any scoundrels with even vaguely moderate modernizing voices, and when there is a huge geographic area producing 20 million or so similarly-leaning peeps, it’s very hard to remain politically stable. > > The assassination of Salman Taseer (or any of the other assassinations in Pakistan) is a stark reminder to the West of the difference between Islamic extremism and Western thought. Islamic “extremism” is not some sort of small but vocal minority in Pakistan. It’s millions upon millions of religious adherents convinced that Islam needs to be defended violently and vigorously. Imagine trying to get by with [this sort of thing](http://tribune.com.pk/story/99313/hardline-stance-religious-bloc-condones-murder/) in any Western democracy. > > And no, there is no solution, because Islam retains such a tight control over its progeny. There is no hope of Pakistan becoming a democratic state in the ordinary Western sense. At least not for a few hundred years. I think a reasonable comparison for Islam in Pakistan (and many other countries around the world) is with Christianity for the Crusaders. Except, of course, Pakistan has enough intelligentsia to make nukes instead of swords. (Unfortunate, but not unexpected, that one of theirs is responsible for nuclear proliferation to rogue countries such as North Korea and Iran.) Come back when you have even the faintest idea about how Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (“KPK”) and the other provinces are governed. Or any idea about how Islam works in Pakistan and elsewhere. Never seen such palpable nonsense in all my time on the board. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/19 "2011-01-06T16:13:13Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Remember communists are fond of thinking that a socialist revolution is simply inevitable and that in the meantime the state will try any amount of appeasement to keep it from coming. What, even **now?!** ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/20 "2011-01-06T16:16:53Z")
Well, yes. The ones who don’t think so aren’t communists anymore. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411.md?page=2)