# Why is Pakistan such a basketcase? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 4, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411 "2011-01-04T20:27:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/81 "2011-01-08T18:32:10Z")
The idea of the nation state as such is of fairly recent vintage. Relatively few of them (not none, not only a couple, but it’s a minority) have succeeded in having a stable, non-corrupt, harmonious nation state among a grouping of people who have significant and (to them) important differences in mother tongue, tribe, and religion, and asking them to do it in a democracy, with fairly widespread poverty and illiteracy rate, is adding almost ridiculous degrees of difficulty to the proposition. Italy and Belgium, with considerably less diversity of wealth distribution, language, ethnicity, religion, etc. are doing an average to below average job of hanging together as a nation, good governance, non-corruption, etc. To me, knowing what we know now, I would say the Pakistan experiment has worked out . . . as well as, or slightly better than, we would have expected if we ran the simulation a few thousand times on the historical/existing fact pattern. In short, just as in the thread about corruption in the Muslim world, one of our baseline conceits/errors is the very recent, Western, idealistic paradigm/assumption that assumes that democracy/nationhood should/will/does lead to a coherent, stable, non-corrupt, non-basket-case, good citizen nation state, when there are far more counterexamples than examples, especially in ethnically, economically, religiously divided areas of the world. (The dangers of this conceit have implications that some still have not grasped for everything from our wars in the ME/S. Asia to Western immigration policy, but that’s a topic for another day). ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/82 "2011-01-08T18:46:44Z")
Oh, and to the question a couple have posed as to why India, which is messed up itself in many ways, gets a comparative free pass I would suggest: (a) vague perception among Westerners that the Indian part of the Raj was more permeated with Western/British ideals/mores/administrative/good government culture than the Eastern part; (b) less vague perception that Indian=Hindu=pacifist/mystic=non-threatening. I don’t have to equate Pakistani=Muslim=jihadi (and I don’t) to note that few if any in the West have any concept of Pakistanis/Muslims as affirmatively embracing pacifism/universalism (I guess Sufis get some of the same warm fuzzy vibe the Hindus do, but how many people think of Sufism when they think of Islamic nations?) versus militarism/tribalism. © more recently, Westerners have become accustomed with India as a “real functioning country” by virtue of extensive outsourcing and H1B-type immigration. IIT grads may have done as much to advance the concept of India as having a stable middle class as anything else in recent years . . . . ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/83 "2011-01-08T18:56:33Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Because unlike Iran circa 1979, Pakistan has a > > 1. Free media and press > > 2. A constitutionally independent judiciary > > 3. A very large and educated middle class > > 4. A fairly large agricultural and Industrial base. > > Iran had in 1979, the Shah,oil, KHAD, US Support and memories of the Achaemenid Empire. Ok, so what about Zias dictatorship throughout the 80’s and his Islamisation movement? Iran had a large industrial and agricultural base and a large educated middle class (the bazaars had major influence in the acension of the Islamists) How is this different. It’s a known fact there was immense suppression of opposition by the Shah I’ll grant you that, this doesn’t however, excuse Pakistan from the same threat of violent overthrow of it’s nominally democratic institutions. Pakistan does not have a free press or independent judiciary. If it had a free press, the repealing of the blasphemy law wouldn’t be a big deal, or it would but people would show their discourse through other actions other than killing the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/84 "2011-01-08T19:34:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by AK84 > Because unlike Iran circa 1979, Pakistan has a > > 1. Free media and press > > 2. A constitutionally independent judiciary > > 3. A very large and educated middle class > > 4. A fairly large agricultural and Industrial base. Rubbish, utter tripe! These are all self qualifiying remarks without any meaningful comparison, 1.FREE? compared to what? 1. INDEPENDANT, compared to where? 2. LARGE, compared to what? What ratios of middle class are we talking about, and what do you define as middle class? 3. Compared to what?, what are the relative sizes of agrarian business compered to other places, what is the GPD of Pakistan? and how does this compare per capita to other nations?Who controls it? In other words, you actually have not said anything whatsoever, you might as well have just made a post with no writing in it at all. Using IRAN as any sort of yardstick is meaningless, since we are on a US message board with posters from around the globe who have completely differing outlooks to yours. I also would not make proud of my country by making comparisons of it to IRAN, pre or post revolution, heck I can make Mexico look good when comparing it to IRAN. Imagine the tv advert, Pakistan - not the best place on earth, but better than Iran! ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/85 "2011-01-08T19:43:52Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Where have I said that it was not Pendant’s first language? It was he who brought it up, not me. > > If you must know without prejudice to what **Pedant** is or claims to be, what set off question marks for me > > 1. Claiming that he was from the Frontier. Pakistani’s do not usually identify themselves with a province, if you ask someone they will say I am from Peshawar, or Kohat, or Karachi, or Islamabad, Quetta. > > 2. They way he mixed up the Province of the NWFP with the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, this is a big thing, the culture of the two areas, the law, the social norms and just the places generally are very very very different, if he was really from that place he would make a major distinction between the two. Its like talking about the US and Canada as if they were the same. > > 3. His claims about being Urdu speaking and being from the North West Frontier. People outside Pakistan (ok perhaps in India) will not realize just how much languages matter in Pakistan. It is perhaps the biggest identifying marker of a person and the biggest and most relevant divide. Language politics is insane, and is probably the main reason why Pakistan still has English as an official language. Many people in Pakistan are polygots and while knowledge of Urdu on its own is fairly universal, outside of Karachi almost NO ONE speaks it as a mother language. It is learnt in school. So his claim that he grew up in an area where there are two major and several assorted minor languages and that Urdu was his first language without there being some highly unusual and exceptional circumstances is absolutely incredible. > > 4. Of course mixing up how the administration works is also strange. > > These and some other things raised questions in my mind. Again, Pedant could be everything he says he is and all his claims could be true. But the existence of the above in my mind raised questions about the veracity of his claims. I’m hoping not to let a debate about Pakistan deteriorate into a debate about whether or not I was born there or raised there (I was). The first language I learned (simultaneously with English) was Urdu because the folks who raised me spoke it. It was you who told me to “come back” when I had some sort of idea of what was going on, and now, having told you why I think I have more expertise than an ordinary Westerner, I’m uninterested in debating that point. I have an interest in protecting my anonymity on the Dope, and obviously personal details detract from that. I assure you Urdu was the commonest common language for every day life in our towns in Hazara district, along with a generous amount of Pushto (not so much Hindko, as I recall). Have you traveled there much? It’s not like I’m representing that I was born in Chitral or anything (although I have traveled there). I can’t figure out where you think I got the NWFP mixed up as entirely synonymous with “Tribal Territories” since I’m really using KPK as a shorthand for a general part of the country. If you want to catch me on a fine point in the hope of exposing a bluff, you should point out I referred to it in the plural…I guess that’s just how we used to say it. It’s really “Province” but it contains a number of subdivisions, as you know, and I guess that influenced how we used to say it. Most of the time you’d just see “N.W.F.P.” without the full words, and our car license just said “Ha.” (for Hazara District). You are entirely wrong about Urdu. It is, along with English, one of the two current official languages of Pakistan. From [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu), for example, as a reference: _“Urdu is mostly learned as a second or a third language as nearly 93% of Pakistan’s population has a mother tongue other than Urdu. Despite this, Urdu was chosen as a token of unity and as a lingua franca so as not to give any native Pakistani language preference over the other. Urdu is therefore spoken and understood by the vast majority in some form or another, including a majority of urban dwellers in such cities as Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi, Islamabad, Multan, Faisalabad, Hyderabad, Peshawar, Quetta, Jhang and Sargodha.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/86 "2011-01-08T19:53:40Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Where have I said that it was not Pendant’s first language? It was he who brought it up, not me. I assumed you were questioning Urdu has his first language because when he said he was going to bow out of speaking it you said: > [@AK84](#): > > Come on you are as you state a “native son” and Urdu was a first language. I am sure your skills at the language put me (whose mother tongue is defiantly not Urdu) to shame. Lets see it, don’t get performance anxiety! Let it flow! I took that as a sarcasm implying that he was lying. > [@AK84](#): > > The [picture](http://www.nouilles.info/sdpix/63716.html) does not fill me with confidence either. But then it could go either way. I think that looks reasonably like someone who could be from Pakistan. > [@casdave](#): > > Rubbish, utter tripe! > > These are all self qualifiying remarks without any meaningful comparison, > > 1.FREE? compared to what? I was wondering about this myself. Google turned up two things I thought were interesting. [This article](http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/03/26/that-free-press-in-pakistan/) states that while the press is mostly free in Pakistan, journalists have been “disappeared” (the article is three years old and so was talking about Musharraf) [This article](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-05-20/pakistan-orders-facebook-blocked-over-competition-to-draw-prophet-muhammad.html) talks about how certain internet cites were blocked in Pakistan due to their anti-Muslim bent. So, could be freer but a press that can criticize the government does seem to exist [Quote=casdave] Using IRAN as any sort of yardstick is meaningless, since we are on a US message board with posters from around the globe who have completely differing outlooks to yours. I also would not make proud of my country by making comparisons of it to IRAN, pre or post revolution, heck I can make Mexico look good when comparing it to IRAN. Imagine the tv advert, Pakistan - not the best place on earth, but better than Iran! [/QUOTE] **AK84** brought up the comparison w/ Iran because _someone else_ asked him him about it. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/87 "2011-01-08T19:53:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Because unlike Iran circa 1979, Pakistan has a > > 1. Free media and press > > 2. A constitutionally independent judiciary > > 3. A very large and educated middle class > > 4. A fairly large agricultural and Industrial base. > > Iran had in 1979, the Shah,oil, KHAD, US Support and memories of the Achaemenid Empire. I’m with the above post in reply to this. Yes, Pakistan has a “free press.” God bless 'em. But… on average you’ll see an incredible Islamic bias (PBUHs for any reference to Mohammed, for example) and you won’t see any “freedom” in expressing anti-Islamic views. It would not be prudent, and for large parts of the country would be very unsafe, to go against the prevailing Islamic views. The press is only free within a straitjacket of Islam. It’s a fantastic country. It’s my homeland. It’s part of who I am. But, like most Muslim-majority countries, it is not “free” or “democratic” in any Western sense of the word. And that Islamic influence over the civil government has become very destabilizing. I think I’m still waiting for your comments around the recent Mullah statement over the assassination of Salman Taseer, and how that fits in with a notion that Pakistan is “free” and that my claims regarding the influence of Islam upon stability are exaggerated somehow. I just came from a conference of nearly 200 people gathering to talk about Pakistan–all natives or workers there–and listened to a US government official talk about some of the work alongside NGOs in some of the more remote areas. I’m not hearing that things have changed much, and in fact it’s a common perception that they are worsening as conservative (“radical”) Islam strengthens its chokehold on freedom of expression. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/88 "2011-01-08T20:21:00Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ok, so what about Zias dictatorship throughout the 80’s and his Islamisation movement? > > Iran had a large industrial and agricultural base and a large educated middle class (the bazaars had major influence in the acension of the Islamists) How is this different. It’s a known fact there was immense suppression of opposition by the Shah I’ll grant you that, this doesn’t however, excuse Pakistan from the same threat of violent overthrow of it’s nominally democratic institutions. > > Pakistan does not have a free press or independent judiciary. If it had a free press, the repealing of the blasphemy law wouldn’t be a big deal, or it would but people would show their discourse through other actions other than killing the opposition. Articles in Pakistani press about Blasphemy law [1](http://tribune.com.pk/story/78368/time-to-repeal-the-blasphemy-law/) [2](http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/12/%E2%80%98president-wants-blasphemy-law-reviewed%E2%80%99.html) [3](http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/03-pakistan-should-abolish-blasphemy-law-activists-ss-01) [4](http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=24369&Cat=9&dt=1/7/2011) 5 These are just english language news. Many other newspaper reports in other languages as well as on the media. As for Judiciary [Supreme Court strikes down Taleban Bill](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4744385.stm) [Supreme Court NRO](http://www.geo.tv/1-19-2010/57342.htm) If anything the Courts are[too activist](http://jurist.org/forum/2010/10/the-case-for-judicial-minimalism-in-pakistan.php) Some[more](http://www.qla.net.pk/Jactivism.asp) ANd the middle class has increased exponentially over the last few years [1](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/19/pakistan.benazirbhutto1) [3](http://www.riazhaq.com/2010/05/1999-2009-pakistans-decade-of-urban.html) [4](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/world/asia/25class.html) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/89 "2011-01-08T20:45:33Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I’m with the above post in reply to this. > > Yes, Pakistan has a “free press.” God bless 'em. But… on average you’ll see an incredible Islamic bias (PBUHs for any reference to Mohammed, for example) and you won’t see any “freedom” in expressing anti-Islamic views. It would not be prudent, and for large parts of the country would be very unsafe, to go against the prevailing Islamic views. The press is only free within a straitjacket of Islam. > > It’s a fantastic country. It’s my homeland. It’s part of who I am. But, like most Muslim-majority countries, it is not “free” or “democratic” in any Western sense of the word. And that Islamic influence over the civil government has become very destabilizing. > > I think I’m still waiting for your comments around the recent Mullah statement over the assassination of Salman Taseer, and how that fits in with a notion that Pakistan is “free” and that my claims regarding the influence of Islam upon stability are exaggerated somehow. I just came from a conference of nearly 200 people gathering to talk about Pakistan–all natives or workers there–and listened to a US government official talk about some of the work alongside NGOs in some of the more remote areas. I’m not hearing that things have changed much, and in fact it’s a common perception that they are worsening as conservative (“radical”) Islam strengthens its chokehold on freedom of expression. Re Islam and the media in Pakistan. Some [articles](http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/12-religion-and-politics--bi-04) [which](http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C04%5C28%5Cstory_28-4-2007_pg7_19) [show](http://www.dawnnews.tv/weekly/encounter/20061014/encounter4.htm) [that](http://www.dawnnews.tv/weekly/encounter/20071110/encounter3.htm)[what you claim is bullshit](http://mkabangladesh.blogspot.com/2010/06/dawncom-editorial-laws-that-stoke.html) Re Salman taseer [Far many more people](http://www.demotix.com/news/549877/protests-against-assassination-salman-taseer) [protested the Taseer killing](http://www.dawn.com/2011/01/04/protests-erupt-after-taseer-assassination.html) the supported it and[it was all over the country.](http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011%5C01%5C07%5Cstory_7-1-2011_pg7_14) So, stop cherry picking. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/90 "2011-01-08T20:51:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I was wondering about this myself. Google turned up two things I thought were interesting. This article states that while the press is mostly free in Pakistan, journalists have been “disappeared” (the article is three years old and so was talking about Musharraf) Most of the major newspapers in the country or their direct predecessors came into being during the worst period of the British Raj; and while they are factious, and riddled with rivalries, any Government that has ever tried to crackdown has seen that measure backfire badly, as Nawaz Sharif found out in 1999. The press then tends to forget feuds and band together with the result that Governments have long since resigned to the fact that patronage works a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/91 "2011-01-08T20:58:07Z")
I think you’re confusing Middle Class rise with an actual rise in Urbanism in Pakistan. And in regards to the examples of free press and judicial practices, you may well show me examples, however you and I both know that nepotism and cronysim as well as endemic corruption in all levels of Pakistani society is a fact, and the inability of the judiciary and free press to hinder that speaks volumes of their impotence. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/92 "2011-01-08T21:00:51Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I think you’re confusing Middle Class rise with an actual rise in Urbanism in Pakistan. > > And in regards to the examples of free press and judicial practices, you may well show me examples, however you and I both know that nepotism and cronysim as well as endemic corruption in all levels of Pakistani society is a fact, and the inability of the judiciary and free press to hinder that speaks volumes of their impotence. Not sure I disagree with you but I do think you need to produce a cite for such a sweeping statement. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/93 "2011-01-08T21:07:27Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And in regards to the examples of free press and judicial practices, you may well show me examples, however you and I both know that nepotism and cronysim as well as endemic corruption in all levels of Pakistani society is a fact, and the inability of the judiciary and free press to hinder that speaks volumes of their impotence. Then this is not a debate. You have your opinions and you are welcome to them.Unfortunately your opinions only reflect upon you, not reality. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/94 "2011-01-08T21:10:33Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > Not sure I disagree with you but I do think you need to produce a cite for such a sweeping statement. Well here it is. _According to 2002, 2006, 2009 and 2010 surveys, the majority of respondents consistently view the police as being the most corrupt sector of Pakistani government. In the 2010 survey, 31% of 4,224 respondents reported paying bribes to the police._ _In 2010, 69% of those surveyed reported that they or someone in their household was subjected to an act of corruption when interacting with the judicial system. Of 339 affirmative respondents asked to identify the actors involved in corruption, 119 said court employees, 84 said a public prosecutor, 50 said a witness, 44 said a judge, 29 said an opponent lawyer, 16 said magistrates, and 12 said others.[5][6_ > **[Corruption in Pakistan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Pakistan)** > > Corruption in Pakistan involves fraudulent practices carried out by officials and institutions, ranging from petty bribery to high-profile scandals. > Corruption distorts economic decision-making, deters investment, undermines competitiveness and, ultimately, hinders economic growth in the country. The problems are deeply entrenched, spanning back decades, and despite ongoing calls for reform, and many attempts to improve the situation, there is little evidence of progress. > "Corruption is a cu... ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/95 "2011-01-08T21:13:02Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Re Islam and the media in Pakistan. > > Some [articles](http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/12-religion-and-politics--bi-04) [which](http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C04%5C28%5Cstory_28-4-2007_pg7_19) [show](http://www.dawnnews.tv/weekly/encounter/20061014/encounter4.htm) [that](http://www.dawnnews.tv/weekly/encounter/20071110/encounter3.htm)[what you claim is bullshit](http://mkabangladesh.blogspot.com/2010/06/dawncom-editorial-laws-that-stoke.html) > > Re Salman taseer > [Far many more people](http://www.demotix.com/news/549877/protests-against-assassination-salman-taseer) [protested the Taseer killing](http://www.dawn.com/2011/01/04/protests-erupt-after-taseer-assassination.html) the supported it and[it was all over the country.](http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011%5C01%5C07%5Cstory_7-1-2011_pg7_14) > > So, stop cherry picking. There is not one mention of anything un-Islamic in any of your cites. The Press is not free to do so. What you posted was a desire for a free press. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/96 "2011-01-08T21:14:51Z")
**AK84** , do you think there’s a divorce between the official government line and the beliefs/behaviors of the mullahs and population? I agree with you that Pakistan has at least the framework for a constitutional democracy. I know that Jinnah was very modern/secular/westernized, and I’m sure many in the government and ruling elite are not very religious. Also, it seems like Benzair Bhutto and Musharraf were not super duper religious. However, it seems like Pakistan is going through a very unstable time right now, and a rise in fundamentalism may have something to do with it. As an example of the discrepancy in attitudes between the government and the people, this [wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Pakistan) talks about how even though there is no law requiring hijab, many women in urban centers are starting to wear it due to growing Middle Eastern influence, and it says that the same influence is making the Islam practiced in Pakistan more orthodox. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/97 "2011-01-08T21:17:27Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Then this is not a debate. You have your opinions and you are welcome to them.Unfortunately your opinions only reflect upon you, not reality. So you deny there is a problem of corruption and nepotism in Pakistan, you deny that basic civil society and freedoms are threatened and that a conservative majority denies the rights of the liberal minority, you deny the poverty which in turn fuels this conservatism and is in turn manipulated by the religious establishment for their own ends, which in turn has created this mess of religious fundamentalism threatening the very foundations of Pakistani society? I’m non Pakistani and non Muslim, and even I can see the glaring holes which desperately need filling if the average Pakistani is going to live a normal relatively free life. You came onto this debate deriding fellow posters about their linguistic skills and background, and did it on a high horse of which you knew everything which is happening in Pakistan, I ask you to contribute, you declare you cannot be bothered, you eventually contribute, and then don’t like various rebuttals, if you cannot face this, you have no place in this thread, it’s up to you, however I have little faith in you actually doing this, and will predict that you most likely retort to veiled insults or open ones. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/98 "2011-01-08T21:18:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is not one mention of anything un-Islamic in any of your cites. The Press is not free to do so. What you posted was a desire for a free press. So, I was thinking about this too. ISTM that the articles (save the first, which doesn’t really seem to be anti-Islam) are more anti-radical Islam or anti-terrorism. That is to say, there’s not an article there that just says, “Islam as a whole sucks and this is why.” That being said, I think that’s nitpicking and the sampling of articles show that it is possible in Pakistan to publish articles that are critical of certain elements of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Gestalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/90ced4/32.png) [@Gestalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gestalt)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/99 "2011-01-08T21:40:42Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Well here it is. > > _According to 2002, 2006, 2009 and 2010 surveys, the majority of respondents consistently view the police as being the most corrupt sector of Pakistani government. In the 2010 survey, 31% of 4,224 respondents reported paying bribes to the police._ > > _In 2010, 69% of those surveyed reported that they or someone in their household was subjected to an act of corruption when interacting with the judicial system. Of 339 affirmative respondents asked to identify the actors involved in corruption, 119 said court employees, 84 said a public prosecutor, 50 said a witness, 44 said a judge, 29 said an opponent lawyer, 16 said magistrates, and 12 said others.[5][6_ > [Corruption in Pakistan - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Pakistan) Well, since you started this discussion by comparing Pakistan to India (which I think is a completely valid comparison), according to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption\_in\_india](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_india) Wikipedia a lot of the same problems exist in India. However, India is ranked 87th in the world for corruption, compared to 143rd for Pakistan, so it’s less corrupt. This difference might partially explain some of the problems Pakistan is having right now, although honestly my opinion (gleaned from various news sources, all American, over the years) is that the rise of Islamism, particularly in the West, is probably more to blame for Pakistan’s current troubles. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411/100 "2011-01-08T21:54:46Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Articles in Pakistani press about Blasphemy law [1](http://tribune.com.pk/story/78368/time-to-repeal-the-blasphemy-law/) In Which we learn that the blasphemy law caused a young Christian to be condemned to death, and that “Cases have ranged from the Kasur case to the more recent Gojra case, from the mind-boggling row of cases between 1988-1992 against 80-year-old development guru Dr Akhtar Hameed Khan, to the case of the son of an alleged blasphemer, an illiterate brick kiln worker who was beaten to death by a frenzied mob.” [2](http://www.dawn.com/2010/12/12/%E2%80%98president-wants-blasphemy-law-reviewed%E2%80%99.html) In which we learn that issues regarding the status of minority rights “are of a grave nature.” [3](http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/03-pakistan-should-abolish-blasphemy-law-activists-ss-01) In which we learn a mob of angry Muslims torched 40 houses and a church. [4](http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=24369&Cat=9&dt=1/7/2011) In which we (the country and/or the **International News** ) learn “we” revere the Prophet as the “last messenger of God.” How are you helping your case, here? Yes, there is a “free press.” But I assure you it’s a free press within a fairly narrow straitjacket of Islamic religious culture. And these are just the “English language newspapers,” 😉 largely for consumption by that educated, largely liberal (by Pak standards) audience. Get into the Urdu ones, or the ones from the Khyber Pakhtunkwa, to get an idea of how widespread “radical” Islam is. And these are your cherry picks to show us Pakistan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pakistan-such-a-basketcase/566411.md?page=6)