# why is pie always round? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 23, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038 "2005-09-23T13:27:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/21 "2005-09-23T15:24:53Z")
> [@](#): > > [Actually,I’d take issue even with this; it may be the case now that rectangular is easier, but this will not always have been the case; angular objects made from cast iron (using primitive methods) are generally more prone to casting defects and subsequent breakage than are round ones; even metal vessels made from plate would have been beaten from flat with a mallet and a leather sandbag - round is very much the natural shape for these. Take plate, cut rectangular. Cut corners, bend up. Beat and/or solder into place. Helluva lot easier than making a round pan. ---
**Author:** ![USCDiver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uscdiver/32/354_2.png) [@USCDiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/USCDiver)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/22 "2005-09-23T15:31:36Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Take plate, cut rectangular. Cut corners, bend up. Beat and/or solder into place. > > Helluva lot easier than making a round pan. By that logic, take plate, cut circular, bend up edges. Voila circular pan and you skip the beat/solder in place step. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/23 "2005-09-23T15:37:47Z")
And also note that rectangular ovens aren’t the standard either. I imagine most hand-built ovens are circular rather than rectangular. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/24 "2005-09-23T17:02:42Z")
> [@](#): > > By that logic, take plate, cut circular, bend up edges. Voila circular pan and you skip the beat/solder in place step. Try it sometime. Heck, try it with a piece of paper. Metal and paper like to fold in straight lines. Trying to make a circle gets messy. And instead of nice straight sides that your pie/cake/bread can slide out of, you get a nasty crimped edge that tenaciously holds it in place. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/25 "2005-09-23T17:18:19Z")
I don’t really like these explanations because they ought to apply equally to all baked goods, whereas we make plenty of other things in rectangular pans. There’s an explanation I’ve heard, which sounds like a myth to me but is interesting nonetheless, that early American settlers had traditionally baked square pies, but in times of shortage, it became necessary to cook and eat less, and they camouflaged it by making round pies. Of course, this seems impractical if you stop to think it would have meant new pans. Plus, judging by **Mangetout** ’s experiences, it sounds like British pies are also round. But it’s an interesting story. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/26 "2005-09-23T17:37:31Z")
Pire are not round. Pie are square. Ask any mathemetician. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/27 "2005-09-23T17:50:24Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > Additionally, it’s much easier to press or roll the dough for the crust into a round(ish) shape than square. It’s a natural shape for this kind of thing, which probably is why pizzas, hamburger patties, tortillas and pancakes tend to be traditionally round as well, among many other similarly-formed foodstuffs. When I go to IHOP, I demand square pancakes. I haven’t had much success, but I keep trying. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/28 "2005-09-23T17:54:36Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > and , no the following answers don’t count: > > - because if it’s served in squares it’s called cobbler (but the crust is different)… > > - because statistics are diagrammed in pie charts. > > – because corn bread are square (reference to an old, old joke, based on “pi R squared” math formula) Because pie pans are round. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/29 "2005-09-23T18:00:26Z")
> [@](#): > > When I go to IHOP, I demand square pancakes. I haven’t had much success, but I keep trying. Have Mrs. Douglas use square tupperware lids instead of round pot lids. Does anyone get the reference? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/30 "2005-09-23T18:01:47Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Pire are not round. > Pie are square. > Ask any mathemetician. > [@pravnik](#): > > 'Cause if it’s not round, it’s cobbler. Tsk, Tsk, Tsk,–naughty , naughty dopers…Didn’t ya read my OP? **Bosda** –You just violated rule number 3. **pravnik** -and you violated rule number 1. > [@The Chao Goes Mu](#): > > … so everyone gets filling and a nice chunk of crust. If a pie was cooked in a square or rectangular pan you’d have some crusty pieces and some goopy blob pieces that are lacking in the yummy crust. It all depends on the size of the piece!! A round pie only gives everybody a bit of crust IF you cut large wedges that reach the center of the pie. (If you cut smaller triangles, you would leave a crustless part in the middle). So the same is true of a square pie: If you cut rectangular strips that reach the middle, then everybody gets a piece of the side crust, with no “gloopy blob” left over No, my fellow Dopers,say it ain’t so…it seems we have an impasse here! After 23 posts, no definitive answer … Ignorance remains unfought… How can it be? Cecil… help!!! ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/31 "2005-09-23T18:13:51Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Sure but this implies purposeful experiments. If you take of hand-formed lump of dough and squish it out either with your palms or a roller it comes out sort of round. Why go to the extra trouble of cutting it square? I do not think it has to imply fully purposeful experiments. I think of it as being akin to evolution. Not everything has to be in accordance with scientific method. Over thousands of years, if there is a benefit to round instead of square, it may have been slowly discovered through accidents or because the village crazy made a circle, and it happened to come out better than the square (or vice-versa, depending on the type of food). Think of all the different types of cooking, baking, etc. that have been discovered, and are the “right” way to prepare things, even if the reason why is not fully known. They were not discovered through rigorous scientific method, but I assume a very slow process (potentially over generations) of trial and error. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/32 "2005-09-23T18:19:39Z")
**SlyFrog** , you’re a person after my own heart. I think 90% of pre-modern human discoveries were made by dumb luck random unplanned trial and error. People do things the way they do because “they always have”, but every now and then a more useful method pops up and gets adopted. Kinda like organic evolution, with human error and clumsiness as the agent of Punctuated Equilibrium. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/33 "2005-09-23T19:32:56Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > I do not think it has to imply fully purposeful experiments. I think of it as being akin to evolution. Not everything has to be in accordance with scientific method. Over thousands of years, if there is a benefit to round instead of square, it may have been slowly discovered through accidents or because the village crazy made a circle, and it happened to come out better than the square (or vice-versa, depending on the type of food). > > Think of all the different types of cooking, baking, etc. that have been discovered, and are the “right” way to prepare things, even if the reason why is not fully known. They were not discovered through rigorous scientific method, but I assume a very slow process (potentially over generations) of trial and error. I don’t disagree with this as a concept, I just don’t think it ever actually happened; cooking pots have only comparatively recently (that is, after the advent of the pie) started being commonly available any shape other than round; the existence of rectangular ovens may have driven this, along with the technology to reliably make non-circular pots that weren’t prone to a greater risk of breakage. It’s also probably worth noting that a square dish has two distinct disadvantages over a round one - it’s more difficult to clean (food tends to get burned on in the corners) and it requires slightly more material to make than does a circular dish of the same liquid capacity. I don’t suspect these were significant factors; people just made round pots because they _worked_. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/34 "2005-09-23T20:15:45Z")
Let’s see… Applying Cecil’s tried and true methods: **Blame the Egyptians.** Er, I can’t think of any good reasons to do this. **Blame the Greeks.** No, no good reasons here either. Some Greek mathematicians had a fascination for easily divisible numbers, and squarish cakes are easier to subdivide, but I doubt they had much to do with the baking. **Blame physics.** This is probably closer. Pour some goopy dough, or an egg mixture, or some batter on a hot flat rock in your campfire and it gravity will make it roughly round in shape. Add some filling on top, pour more batter over it, and presto: pie. If you want to make a thicker pie, you need a way to keep the batter or dough from running too thin (or slipping off the edge of your hot rock) so you use whatever is handy to confine the dough to a given area. One could either use a hot rock with a natural depression in it (which in nature is unlikely to be square) or some kind of shell or gourd (also roundish). You could use naturally occuring objects like bones or sticks to build walls (which are mostly straight but can be carved) or skins/intestines (which can fully enclose your food item). Naturally, an actual oven (which can heat from the top as well as from the bottom and sides) would enable different kinds of cooking, but I’d think that’s relatively late an invention. By the time you can make an oven you can make whatever kind of dishes you want, I should think. My guess is it’s got to do with batter/dough consistency and what can be fried on a flat rock. Eh, I dunno. I’d rather blame the Greeks. ---
**Author:** ![Aangelica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Aangelica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aangelica)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/35 "2005-09-23T21:04:03Z")
:smack: You guys don’t bake, do you? As a person who bakes many pies, I’m going with: “Pies are round because making square corners using pie crust is a pain in the behind which often results in odd double-crusty bits and weird clumping” If you whip up some pie crust dough and roll it out to the desired thickness, the crust typically comes out roundish. One can _arrange_ for it to come out in other shapes (like squareish), but it’s a minor pain in the ass. However, dropping a roundish chunk of raw pie crust into a round pan results in fairly smooth and even coverage of said pan without the need for odd cornering maneuvers. Dropping a squarish (and trust me, square-_ish_ is probably as close as you’re getting with only a rolling pin) chunk of raw pie crust into a square pan does not result in smooth even coverage of said pan. It results in the need to trim and re-fuse the edges of the trim back together in order to not have a weird, lumpy, doubled-up spot at the corner. There’s also the problem of the middle bits of a square (or rectangular) pie. Pie filling (in the case of fruit pies and meat pies) is drippy. Or possibly oozy (in the case of say chocolate cream pie). Unlike cake (which is often rectangular or square), pie filling generally fails to stay in one spot unless contained by something. Hence the point of pie crust in the first place - it provides cohesiveness. It’s basically pie infrastructure. In many pies, if one doesn’t have at least three “walls” what you end up with is top crust immediately on top of bottom crust separated by a very thin layer of filling juice and a landslide of pie goodness on either side taking up the rest of the pan. Speaking of pie, I need to go make me and my sweetie some pie now. Buh-bye! Apples to peel. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/36 "2005-09-23T21:44:23Z")
The way I recall it is- Rocky: Hey Bullwinkle. Didja know that the area of a circle is pi r squared? Bullwinkle: No, Rocky. Pie are round. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![devilsknew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4da419/32.png) [@devilsknew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/devilsknew)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/37 "2005-09-23T23:52:17Z")
I would suggest reading this excellent resource on the [history of pies](http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html) researched by Lynne Olver. > [@Fish](#): > > Blame the Egyptians. Er, I can’t think of any good reasons to do this. > > Blame the Greeks. No, no good reasons here either. Some Greek mathematicians had a fascination for easily divisible numbers, and squarish cakes are easier to subdivide, but I doubt they had much to do with the baking. > > Blame physics. This is probably closer. Pour some goopy dough, or an egg mixture, or some batter on a hot flat rock in your campfire and it gravity will make it roughly round in shape. Add some filling on top, pour more batter over it, and presto: pie. Probably a combination of all [three.](http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#pastry) Medieval pie crusts were often described as coffins. > [@](#): > > Medieval cooking texts typically instruct the cook to lay his fruit or meat in a “coffin,” no recipe provided. Up through Medieval times, pie crust was often used as a cooking receptacle. It was vented with holes and sometimes marked to distinguish the baker/owner. The crust was sometimes discarded. Pie crust has changed little through the ages. From an English cooking text circa 1381 on how to make Apple Pie [URL=][http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/foc/FoC160small.htmlFor](http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/foc/FoC160small.htmlFor) to make Tartys in Applis “Tak gode Applys and gode spycis and figys and reysons and perys and wan they are wel ybrayed colourd wyth safron wel and do yt in a cofyn and do yt forth to bake wel.” (I still hold that modern American Pie is round because it is a pot pie and is directly related to the traditional shape of pots. There really is no huge mystery- form following function.) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/38 "2005-09-24T00:18:29Z")
> [@SlyFrog](#): > > I do not think it has to imply fully purposeful experiments. I think of it as being akin to evolution. Not everything has to be in accordance with scientific method. Over thousands of years, if there is a benefit to round instead of square, it may have been slowly discovered through accidents or because the village crazy made a circle, and it happened to come out better than the square (or vice-versa, depending on the type of food). You might be right. But … The pie dough when flattened just came out roundish and why bother to change it? On the other hand, someone would have to say something like, “I wonder what a square pie would be like?” Then make one, bake it and compare it with the way they had always done it. That would be in the nature of a planned experiment. I seriously doubt that a square pie vs. a round one could happen by dumb luck. Of course it wouldn’t be a series of scientific experiments in the modern sense, double blind with controls and all that stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Runs\_With\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/278dde/32.png) [@Runs\_With\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Runs_With_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/39 "2005-09-24T01:33:39Z")
From Betty Crocker: "Pies have become a uniquely American institution. Early settlers brought over recipes for ‘pyes’ baked in long, deep dishes called ‘coffins.’ When times were tight in colonial days, frugal bakers rounded the corners of the coffin and made it shallow, so the pie would stretch further. Early Americans ate pie for breakfast, pie for lunch, and pie for dinner, using fruit and berries in the summer and nuts, dried fruits and root vegetables in the winter. Pies were kept in pie safes, wooden cabinets with pierced tin doors that let the pies cool but kept the flies off." ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038/40 "2005-09-24T20:54:23Z")
The only pie I ever make at home is bacon and egg pie. It is always rectangular because; a) that is the shape of the oven tin. b) bacon and egg pie should always be rectangular (unless it is the one person kind). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-pie-always-round/323038.md?page=3)