Why is pinball such a white hobby?

[dropzone]

@Son_of_a_Rich

But…were said black people ever observed playing pinball?

I dunno. Didn’t track shit like that, or even pay much attention. Anyway, we had one of the first Air Hockey tables on Earth (big state school close to Brunswick–we might even have been a beta site back in '72) and it had my group’s attention.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Marley23

But let’s not act like all hipsters are white, and Mr. Nylock’s post doesn’t deserve more than :rolleyes:.

Hey, I put a lot of effort into that WAG of an explanation(s), I’ll have you know! I didn’t say anything about hipsters in post though - was that hipsters part of your comment supposed to be regarding my post? I’m just wondering. And which post are you referring to?

[Shagnasty]

@Mr.Nylock

Hey, I put a lot of effort into that WAG of an explanation(s), I’ll have you know! I didn’t say anything about hipsters in post though - was that hipsters part of your comment supposed to be regarding my post? I’m just wondering. And which post are you referring to?

No, I think it was about mine. I included them in an obliquely derogatory way because I just can’t help it. However, the vast majority of hipsters are too young to care anything about pinball (although I am sure many have tried to find a way).

If I had to guess, most of the aficionados are white men in their 40’s or older who have occupations like dentist, CPA or doctor. Almost all people I know (including myself) that aggressively pursue such interests fall into that demographic. The rich white male businessmen tend to go for really expensive, chromed out weekend Harley Davidson’s, pointless boats and sports memorabilia.

It is all about satisfying their inner child and getting the same things they always wanted growing up but never had including pristine box sets of true toys. Middle-aged white guys with money and good jobs are unusually brazen among the demographic groups to actually pursue such things and flaunt them. Not that there is anything wrong with that. There are a few things I have my eye on as well and they will be mine.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Jophiel

Or else, you know, they just find the wide array of boards interesting and enjoy playing it and it takes a measure of skill and physical finesse to do it right and stuff.

But it’s a game, so let’s go with the lost youth and feelings of inferiority thing.

Now that I think about it, the only people I’ve known who actually owned their own machines and were into them were rather wealthy. One was the owner of the company I used to work for, the other was an attorney friend of the family. Losers

I’m speaking more from personal experience in my own life; so I have no feelings positive or negative about winners or losers in life. The description is just meant to be a factual recounting of my own experiences with these sorts of niche activities not a judgement upon pinball players as being better or worse people.

What I mean to say is, some people are really successful as grown ups, some are not - but I don’t use that to determine the value of a person. I wouldn’t really think better or worse of people who play pinball if they were all wealthy attorneys than if they were all barbers or anything else really. When I say losers, I don’t mean I think they’re losers personally, its just that others think they are losers; they are shunned. They may not be shunned blatantly, but if you come from a certain background and fall behind, those same people you were once equals with now view you as beneath them on some level.

I think your response illustrates this fact well; you say well you’re wrong Mr. Nylock because I have wealthy winner friends who are rich attorneys. If you did not yourself believe in that sort of standard you would have said something different.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Shagnasty

No, I think it was about mine. I included them in an obliquely derogatory way because I just can’t help it. However, the vast majority of hipsters are too young to care anything about pinball (although I am sure many have tried to find a way).

If I had to guess, most of the aficionados are white men in their 40’s or older who have occupations like dentist, CPA or doctor. Almost all people I know (including myself) that aggressively pursue such interests fall into that demographic. The rich white male businessmen tend to go for really expensive, chromed out weekend Harley Davidson’s, pointless boats and sports memorabilia.

It is all about satisfying their inner child and getting the same things they always wanted growing up but never had including pristine box sets of true toys. Middle-aged white guys with money and good jobs are unusually brazen among the demographic groups to actually pursue such things and flaunt them. Not that there is anything wrong with that. There are a few things I have my eye on as well and they will be mine.

I’ve seen the sort of demographic you are talking about get into things like bicycles, guns, mechanical watches, birdwatching. It has been my experience that with pinball it attracts a different kind of crowd - sort of like the old video game crowd. I guess the most interaction I have had with pinball specifically is at a coffee shop I used to go to 19 years ago that had a pinball room and ran tournaments. The coffee shop as well as the crowd itself was extremely hipster/nerd - undeniably so. But things may have changed since then.

[Jophiel]

@Mr.Nylock

What I mean to say is, some people are really successful as grown ups, some are not - but I don’t use that to determine the value of a person. I wouldn’t really think better or worse of people who play pinball if they were all wealthy attorneys than if they were all barbers or anything else really. When I say losers, I don’t mean I think they’re losers personally, its just that others think they are losers; they are shunned. They may not be shunned blatantly, but if you come from a certain background and fall behind, those same people you were once equals with now view you as beneath them on some level.

So they’re all losers but in some cosmic, indeterminable and unmeasurable sense? They’re “shunned” but if you don’t see them as being shunned, it because it’s secret shunning, the type that drives a wealthy man to pinball?

Oooooooooh-kay then.

[Marley23]

@Mr.Nylock

Hey, I put a lot of effort into that WAG of an explanation(s), I’ll have you know!

That’s unfortunate.

@Shagnasty

No, I think it was about mine.

Right.

I included them in an obliquely derogatory way because I just can’t help it. However, the vast majority of hipsters are too young to care anything about pinball (although I am sure many have tried to find a way).

If I had to guess, most of the aficionados are white men in their 40’s or older who have occupations like dentist, CPA or doctor. Almost all people I know (including myself) that aggressively pursue such interests fall into that demographic. The rich white male businessmen tend to go for really expensive, chromed out weekend Harley Davidson’s, pointless boats and sports memorabilia.

And here I think you may be onto something. I did a Google search for “hipster pinball” and found this story.

@MarketWatch

Not surprisingly, Epstein sees a lot of his old customers at his new arcade. He recognizes pinball’s sudden popularity among the hipster set, but he also says the game’s recent surge has a lot to do with its nostalgic appeal among baby boomers, many of whom end up buying pinball machines to put in their rec rooms and “man caves” (new machines typically start at around $5,000).

However - this is from a different version of the same story - I don’t think a lot of middle-aged guys are hanging out in Williamsburg or the Lower East Side for pinball.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Jophiel

So they’re all losers but in some cosmic, indeterminable and unmeasurable sense? They’re “shunned” but if you don’t see them as being shunned, it because it’s secret shunning, the type that drives a wealthy man to pinball?

Oooooooooh-kay then.

If you are going to have all this snark, at least read what I am saying. Really all I’m saying is that they are drawn to it because of a more intense nostalgia for the past; I never said anything about wealthy people driven to playing pinball, and I am not saying that they are losers. It really boils down to an opinion that their more sustained attachment to certain things that have a specific time period associated with them for certain reasons.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Marley23

That’s unfortunate.

I think its unfortunate that you feel the need to continue making cuts at me and want to say everything I am saying is completely worthless without even answering which post you are responding to.

[Marley23]

@Mr.Nylock

I am not saying that they are losers.

You said they “kind of suck at adult life” with a boring job or not job, get left behind by their friends, don’t have the status of their peers, and aren’t as good or important as everyone else. But you didn’t use the word loser, so…

[Mr.Nylock]

@Marley23

You said they “kind of suck at adult life” with a boring job or not job, get left behind by their friends, don’t have the status of their peers, and aren’t as good or important as everyone else. But you didn’t use the word loser, so…

I clarified further up in this thread the meaning behind what I was saying - and yeah, I know it is a wacky way to look at it. Sometimes I like to put out ideas that I have even if they are a little bet goofy, I think sometimes it leads to fruitful conversation, sometimes not. I think your responses are mean, and you are not even reading the follow up to what I am saying. Therefore can I kindly ask that you just no longer respond to my posts? I do not find these kinds of discussions fruitful.

[Jophiel]

@Mr.Nylock

Therefore can I kindly ask that you just no longer respond to my posts?

If you want to put out “goofy” ideas without fear of critical response, start a blog and turn off the comments.

[Siam_Sam]

@Suicide

I recently attended a pinball convention in a large northeastern city, thousands of people attended, everybody was white, i didn’t see one single black person…does anyone know why pinball is such a white hobby? i figured it’s because as kids growing up, white kids in the suburbs had extra money to waste on pinball while black kids in the inner city did not…does this make sense?

Because they’re too busy smoking crack and pitching pennies? If it ain’t that, then I got nuttin’.

[Mr.Nylock]

@Jophiel

If you want to put out “goofy” ideas without fear of critical response, start a blog and turn off the comments.

I have no problem with or fear of critical response, I didn’t find the response of Marley23 critical; I just found it mean, full of the most sophomoric level of snark, and not to the point. If Marley does not like or agree with what I am saying and has nothing better than to come up with those kinds of responses, then I would rather he just not engage.

You also disagreed with me and thought my comments were pretty lame, but I didn’t ask you to stop responding; I thought your comments had some substance, even though I did not agree with you.

Anyway, I can see that posting in this thread isn’t really my cup of tea - I don’t really like pissing people off for no good reason.

[Marley23]

@Mr.Nylock

I think your responses are mean, and you are not even reading the follow up to what I am saying. Therefore can I kindly ask that you just no longer respond to my posts?

You can ask, but I’m not going to respect your request. If you’re modifying your comments, then I’ll let it go and maybe we can take this somewhere productive. But you did call people losers in pretty unambiguous terms and I’m not sure you are letting go of the idea that more intense nostalgia for the past (which might be common among pinball fans) is linked to a lack of success and esteem in the present. If you’re still touting that idea, you’re calling the players losers. If you are letting it go, then maybe we’re getting somewhere.

[Dorjan]

I’m going to guess people attending pinball machine conventions are enthusiasts who collect and OWN pinball machines, not merely play them. Anyone can pony up some change to play pinball, but it’s going to people in the higher economic strata who have the disposable income to collect game machines that costs multiple thousands of dollars apiece. That strata is still overwhelmingly populated with white dudes.

[Anaamika]

@Incubus

-Things that get more popular with one particular group start to get lumped as that group’s “thing”. I notice that table tennis and badmiton skew very heavily asian, for example. There’s no reason someone outside that group can’t be into it, but since they might not necessarily be from the same culture dominant in the hobby, there might be a bit of a gulf in mutual understanding. Part of why my wife isn’t into some ‘white’ hobbies is that she doesn’t want to be the token minority in the group and feels she won’t be as fully accepted with it as other white people. While this isn’t always true or a rational feeling many people don’t want to necessarily ‘stick out’ in a group and it can cause certain hobbies/fields to get pretty homogenized.

-Adding on to that: Nerds can be depressingly racist (and sexist) at times. While many like to come off as intellectual and inclusive, often times they still carry their own prejudices and while they and others in their culture might be blind to it, people of color might really be aware. This stems from many reasons; one of which I believe is when a person feels like kind of an outcast but finds comradere in other similar outcasts, they get weirdly possesive and tribal when it comes to other groups stepping into their ‘thing’. Sexism is the same problem, some guys can’t wrap their head around the idea that a woman could be as into their hobby as they are.

In addition to this very excellent post,I really don’t think white people in the States understand how hard it can be sometimes to walk into a room and see a sea of white faces. Now imagine doing that day after day week after week for the rest of your life! For the rest of your life, you will never fit in100%, no matter how welcoming they are. When white privilege is spoken of this is one of the things we mean - that you will rarely if ever be the minority. It is certainly not insurmountable but it adds another dimension. So these things tend to continue to remain white and since they do, they continue to not attract minorities.

Also, I would like to add something more that has been my experience. Fantasy and game culture is not highly valued in many Asian households. I clearly remember all of my family disparaging my tastes in fantasy, asking me why I didn’t read real stuff and why I was wasting my time with escapist literature. My parents would have been downright contemptuous of something like the SCA, never mind a pinball convention!

[Incubus]

@Anaamika

In addition to this very excellent post,I really don’t think white people in the States understand how hard it can be sometimes to walk into a room and see a sea of white faces. Now imagine doing that day after day week after week for the rest of your life! For the rest of your life, you will never fit in100%, no matter how welcoming they are. When white privilege is spoken of this is one of the things we mean - that you will rarely if ever be the minority. It is certainly not insurmountable but it adds another dimension. So these things tend to continue to remain white and since they do, they continue to not attract minorities.

This is definitely true and reflects my wife’s experiences. When she and I first started dating she would often mention feeling a little out of place when hanging out with my friends/family. I didn’t really get it at first, until I started hanging out with her friends and family and I was the only white guy in the group, the only one that couldn’t speak or understand Spanish very well nor get all the little cultural in-jokes, pop culture references, and various nuances of my wife’s Mexican culture.

Getting back to Pinball as a white hobby, its a similar situation where the person of color might have far less in common with other pinball enthusiasts. Pinball is a retro hobby and many adults are into it out of nostalgia, so many a person of color who gets into it at an older age (twenties, thirties) doesn’t share the perspective of growing up with it.

Some cultures just have broader definitions of ‘fun’ as well. For my wife’s culture, everybody had to work so hard that leisure time was precious and more valued for spending it with other family members rather than watching flippers and metal balls whiz around on a pinball table

[Anaamika]

In point of fact,I kind of want to get into my local SCA but there are a multitude of things holding me back.

• the aforementioned all white (and like two black people) thing
• the fact that this is a medium sized town and lots of these people have known each other for years
• most of them have been doing stuff like this for years too whereas I began as an adult
• the SCA in particular has very strict rules. I once listened to a group of young men at one of the dance practices go on and on about the horror! of someone who had come in full costume but wore nylons. They mocked this poor girl ceaselessly. Now maybe you can say these were the exceptions but there were people all around us and no one said a thing
• the costumes. You cannot attend an event, not even one, out of costume. There are no “welcome new people” or initation events.it is very daunting hearing how much work people put into their costumes, their identities,and I have little idea where to begin. “just sew it” they say! What if you can’t sew? And what if put in all this effort just to be disparaged, at length, in public, because I wore nylons or made some other egregious mistake?
• this is, after all, European culture that the SCA stands for. I don’t have a problem with that, but there is no doubt I feel like a poser
• the cost. Both monetary and time wise. no matter what, no matter how much I love it, the SCA (or
  any such thing) will never be my only entertainment. I am neither willing nor able to spend my entire discretionary budget on it

I honestly can’t imagine that pinball conventions don’t have some of the same problems. Which reminds me. Why don’t SCA groups have new person welcome and orientations? Do you actively not want people to join?

Whew! Long post on a tablet. Please excuse any typos.

[Gatopescado]

@Mr.Nylock

But I bet you sure play a mean pinball.

Damn Straight!

@donkeyoatey

I’m sure I saw I saw him tilt.

I always play it clean!

@Dorjan

… but it’s going to people in the higher economic strata who have the disposable income to collect game machines that costs multiple thousands of dollars apiece. That strata is still overwhelmingly populated with white dudes.

True story. Even “cheap” machines are pretty spendy, and “collector’s” are downright expensive. They do hold their value if taken care of, thankfully.