# Why is planning a crime a crime itself? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 28, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828 "2011-09-28T01:01:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/1 "2011-09-28T01:01:29Z")
Recently we have had some locals plead guilty to planning to carry out some terrorist attacks. When did this kind of thing become illegal? Are there many other things I can plan to do (but not actually do) that are also a crime? For example if I plan to kill someone including buying a gun, bullets, dark clothing, finding out where he lives, follow him around, etc. is that a crime even if I never shoot the guy? ---
**Author:** ![Bisected8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Bisected8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bisected8)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/2 "2011-09-28T01:03:20Z")
As far as I’m aware, it tends to be the case in many jurisdictions. It’s intent that matters most of the time after all. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/3 "2011-09-28T01:18:07Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Recently we have had some locals plead guilty to planning to carry out some terrorist attacks. When did this kind of thing become illegal? [Conspiracy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29) has been a crime at common law since time immemorial. Most jurisdictions in the English tradition have codified broad conspiracy statutes. For example, in New York, > [@](#): > > ``` > A person is guilty of conspiracy in the second degree when, with > > ``` > > intent that conduct constituting a class A felony be performed, he > agrees with one or more persons to engage in or cause the performance of > such conduct. And if that’s not good enough, we have five other degrees of conspiracy to charge you with. (First degree conspiracy involves conspiring with minors.) > [@](#): > > Are there many other things I can plan to do (but not actually do) that are also a crime? For example if I plan to kill someone including buying a gun, bullets, dark clothing, finding out where he lives, follow him around, etc. is that a crime even if I never shoot the guy? Depending on how far you go, you might meet the standard for attempted murder. BTW, these kinds of things are called “anticipatory offenses,” if you’re interested in some googlefood. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/4 "2011-09-28T01:30:27Z")
IANAL but I believe it’s legal to plan a crime as long as you take no actions that would lead to the commission of the crime. However, discussing your plans with other people is considered an action. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/5 "2011-09-28T01:33:40Z")
What does discussing my plans with others mean? If I ask someone where to buy a gun is that discussing the plan with others? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/6 "2011-09-28T01:58:43Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > What does discussing my plans with others mean? If I ask someone where to buy a gun is that discussing the plan with others? No. To become a conspiracy, at least two people must agree to commit a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/7 "2011-09-28T02:01:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Why is planning a crime a crime itself? Let’s say the police discover a bunch of guys planning a bank robbery in the stereotypical basement. Without such a law they’d have to sit back and let the robbery happen before they could arrest them, putting people in danger. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/8 "2011-09-28T02:13:22Z")
And of course the big organized crime bosses will very, very rarely actually take direct part in a robbery or murder themselves. If you couldn’t charge them for conspiracy, you wouldn’t be able to charge them with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/9 "2011-09-28T02:19:01Z")
You might research “inchoate” crimes - that’s the fancy legal name for offenses where the underlying crime doesn’t actually need to be committed, e.g. attempt, solicitation, conspiracy. These things have been around forever. Conspiracy, for example, came over with the English common law. I’d type more but my stupid smartphone is not cooperating. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/10 "2011-09-28T02:37:00Z")
Former Illinois governor [Rod Blagojevich](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_blagojevich#Impeachment_trial_and_removal_from_office) was found guilty of conspiracy for attempting to sell Barack Obama’s former U.S. Senate seat for political gain. His defense attorneys argued that all he did was talk; he never managed to pull off the things he talked about. It didn’t matter; he was still found guilty, and is now awaiting sentencing. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/11 "2011-09-28T02:50:30Z")
I definitely want law enforcement to have the authority to arrest people in the “planning” stages of a crime, for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/12 "2011-09-28T03:12:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And of course the big organized crime bosses will very, very rarely actually take direct part in a robbery or murder themselves. If you couldn’t charge them for conspiracy, you wouldn’t be able to charge them with anything. And they’ll most probably talk in generalities, like “take care of it”, or “make it go away”, but never “kill that SOB Johnny and weigh down his body with cement blocks and drop him into the Hudson River off of the Tappan Zee Bridge.” Reminds me of a Bugs Bunny cartoon, when he’s stuck in a hideout with two 1930s gangsters. At one point, the boss wants Bugs killed. So he hands his henchman a gun and tells him to go into the next room and “let 'im have it.” After Bugs and the henchman are alone, Bugs turns to him, stick out his hand, and says, “You heard Rocky: let me have it!” The henchman is dumbfounded, but then gives Bugs the gun. _BANG_ Then the henchman returns to Rocky, with his face all powder-burned, and says, “daaa… I let the rabbit have it…” ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/13 "2011-09-28T03:27:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > IANAL but I believe it’s legal to plan a crime as long as you take no actions that would lead to the commission of the crime. However, discussing your plans with other people is considered an action. I’ve always toyed with the idea of setting up a website to crowdsource fantasy bank robberies. For example, we’d pick a real-life bank, and crowdsource how to rob it. The point would be fun (i.e., the “fantasy” aspect) rather than to actually committ the crime. Hopefully for each target bank we’d get insiders that either spill information or agree to participate in the caper. I guess, now, I have to set it up on a Chinese server, but just in case I guess I have to go to the other thread where they’re discussing things that are crimes in the USA even when done outside of the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/14 "2011-09-28T07:12:00Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’ve always toyed with the idea of setting up a website to crowdsource fantasy bank robberies. For example, we’d pick a real-life bank, and crowdsource how to rob it. The point would be fun (i.e., the “fantasy” aspect) rather than to actually committ the crime. Hopefully for each target bank we’d get insiders that either spill information or agree to participate in the caper. I have a feeling that if that bank then got robbed in the way described there, applicable police forces would not be happy. Your life could suddenly become very miserable. And forget about “having the server in China would give me immunity” - it doesn’t work for paedoporn. You would still be in the US (and your correspondents wherever) while performing the prosecutable action. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/15 "2011-09-28T08:50:41Z")
from “centennial” by michener: “then you better hang me too, sheriff. 'coz i’ve been planning on robbing that bank myself for fifteen years now.” “one thing i’m gonna tell you guys, don’t ever go to falfurias. they hang you for what you’re thinking.” ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/16 "2011-09-28T08:57:29Z")
So if I have somehow legally obtained blueprints to a bank, somehow legally obtained lots of explosives and if I have written in my diary “Dear diary, tomorrow I’m gonna use these explosives to blow through a weak point in the bank wall as identified by the blueprints” it’s legal as long as I don’t talk to anyone else about it? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/17 "2011-09-28T11:05:06Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > So if I have somehow legally obtained blueprints to a bank, somehow legally obtained lots of explosives and if I have written in my diary “Dear diary, tomorrow I’m gonna use these explosives to blow through a weak point in the bank wall as identified by the blueprints” it’s legal as long as I don’t talk to anyone else about it? You have almost certainly committed a crime, jus not the crime of conspiracy, ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/18 "2011-09-28T11:27:01Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > So if I have somehow legally obtained blueprints to a bank, somehow legally obtained lots of explosives and if I have written in my diary “Dear diary, tomorrow I’m gonna use these explosives to blow through a weak point in the bank wall as identified by the blueprints” it’s legal as long as I don’t talk to anyone else about it? I believe obtaining explosives with the intent to use them in a crime is itself illegal in a lot of jurisdictions, even if you could otherwise obtain the explosives legally. So I think you could still be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/19 "2011-09-28T14:14:50Z")
Would you have stalkers free to pursue their victims, only arresting them after they had done something? Like this [nutjob](http://www.talkinbroadway.com/talkin/stalkin.html)? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828/20 "2011-09-28T17:54:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > And forget about “having the server in China would give me immunity” - it doesn’t work for paedoporn. You would still be in the US (and your correspondents wherever) while performing the prosecutable action. But if I recall correctly, **Balthisar** _lives_ in China. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-planning-a-crime-a-crime-itself/597828.md?page=2)