# Why is Prince considered to be a genius? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 23, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896 "2016-04-23T13:39:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/221 "2016-04-26T00:23:37Z")
OP here. I posted in GQ hoping to get some specific and technical answers. Not a lot here, but I did go listen - as so many of his fans here are suggesting - to _When The Doves Cry_. I believe that if you really love Prince, you’ll probably love this piece. However, musically - and that was my basic question - there’s nothing here. After a mindless 30 seconds of the same drum track intro, there are essentially two chords and a “melody” made of two notes. This may be a great song for a lot of people, but it hardly rises to the level of great music to me or to, I’m sure, lots of people, including other musicians. Meh. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/222 "2016-04-26T00:23:56Z")
Prince not being a part of the 80s rock scene had everything to do with racism and absolutely nothing to do with Prince’s lack of awesomeness. You can’t get a song that is rockier than “Bambi”. An R&B station wouldn’t play that song for all the money in the world. The station manager would tell you it doesn’t have enough bass, the riff is too loud, and the singing ain’t sanging. You can bang your head to it, but not shake your ass. If you’ve got Spotify, I dare you to listen to “Bambi” and deny what I’m saying. Maybe picture a white dude performing it, if that’ll help. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/223 "2016-04-26T00:26:23Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Black pop music charts go back 76 years in Billboard. Are you saying that before that the industry was integrated? They just decided to start doing that in 1940? Or is it more likely that it was unspoken and there was so much interest in the black pop record market that a huge demand created the chart? > > So you can go on with your point now? Now it’s 76 years? I’m not saying anything, you said > [@](#): > > Black pop is what they had a chart for for 100 years, during your lifetime too, I imagine. It was called “sepia” “Rhythm and Blues” “Soul” “Urban contemporary” at different times. I want a cite. I’m asking for some kind of proof that you didn’t just make this up. YOU claimed that there was black pop music chart in 1916…show me. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/224 "2016-04-26T00:50:02Z")
> [@CC](#): > > OP here. I posted in GQ hoping to get some specific and technical answers. Not a lot here, but I did go listen - as so many of his fans here are suggesting - to _When The Doves Cry_. I believe that if you really love Prince, you’ll probably love this piece. However, musically - and that was my basic question - there’s nothing here. After a mindless 30 seconds of the same drum track intro, there are essentially two chords and a “melody” made of two notes. This may be a great song for a lot of people, but it hardly rises to the level of great music to me or to, I’m sure, lots of people, including other musicians. Meh. If you look up next to your monitor there’s little cup with purple kool-aid in it. You haven’t drunk it yet. When you do everything will become clear. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/225 "2016-04-26T01:00:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Prince not being a part of the 80s rock scene had everything to do with racism and absolutely nothing to do with Prince’s lack of awesomeness. > > You can’t get a song that is rockier than “Bambi”. An R&B station wouldn’t play that song for all the money in the world. The station manager would tell you it doesn’t have enough bass, the riff is too loud, and the singing ain’t sanging. You can bang your head to it, but not shake your ass. > > If you’ve got Spotify, I dare you to listen to “Bambi” and deny what I’m saying. Maybe picture a white dude performing it, if that’ll help. I’m picturing a white dude singing it and it’s a bummer. My god, really? Looking backward is a complicated game. Prince was a pop music artist who wanted to sell records. I’m sure he wanted to sell to everyone including black people and white people. We don’t have to specify. Why on earth would be go into the rock scene and not sell any records? Makes no sense. He got radio play, had pop records, sold to lots of people. But he’s not a rock hero too. You can’t have it all ways. Unless you’re on planet purple. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/226 "2016-04-26T01:02:19Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > If you look up next to your monitor there’s little cup with purple kool-aid in it. You haven’t drunk it yet. When you do everything will become clear. You’re aware that when you start from a position of ignorance, and move on to insults, it pretty much proves the other side’s point for them, right? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/227 "2016-04-26T01:12:17Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > David Bowie is a greater artist than Prince. Ok, I disagree with pretty much all of the rest of this post that isn’t based in fact. That’s cool. The above I will agree with, but that’s putting him in pretty rarefied air. Also, Prince’s genius is way different than Bowie. Prince is twice the musician Bowie was, and a better singer. He was differently, if equally innovative, and he probably wasn’t quite as good a songwriter or conceptual artist. But, Damn. What are your thoughts on the Talking Heads? They are the contemporary band that is most similar to what Prince was doing in the early 80s. No really. Go listen to “the name of this band is the talking heads” or “stop making sense” and then go check out the live YouTube videos of Prince from 1984. Ignore the vocals, they are playing the same style of music. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/228 "2016-04-26T01:18:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Prince not being a part of the 80s rock scene had everything to do with racism and absolutely nothing to do with Prince’s lack of awesomeness. I think **drad** can’t see this. What he refers to as the “80’s rock scene” seems to, by definition, exclude anyone not a white guy on the guitar getting airtime on MTV. Nevermind that it wasn’t really until MJ that videos featuring black artists was even considered a worthy pursuit. Prince would not have become a household name if Purple Rain (the movie, not the album) hadn’t been squarely aimed at rock fans. That the main characters werent white didn’t pose a big problem because the music was so accessible to an audience hungry for a fresh raw take on the genre. But they still had to make Prince’s character be biracial to seal his “crossover” appeal. Which, in 2016, should embarrass us all. But given what he was up against, I can’t say him I blame him for playing up the “am I black or white” schtick. When you factor in racial bias, it seems quite likely that Prince is underrated, not overrated. Too many people have ignored him because they see him as “black pop artist” and nothing more. So sad. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/229 "2016-04-26T01:23:26Z")
David Bowie a greater artist than Prince? But how can that be? Bowie was just another limey mimicking Black Pop. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/230 "2016-04-26T01:28:08Z")
> [@CC](#): > > OP here. I posted in GQ hoping to get some specific and technical answers. Not a lot here, but I did go listen - as so many of his fans here are suggesting - to _When The Doves Cry_. I believe that if you really love Prince, you’ll probably love this piece. However, musically - and that was my basic question - there’s nothing here. After a mindless 30 seconds of the same drum track intro, there are essentially two chords and a “melody” made of two notes. This may be a great song for a lot of people, but it hardly rises to the level of great music to me or to, I’m sure, lots of people, including other musicians. Meh. I… Sigh. Ok, I know this thread got pulled in a lot of different directions but the answer to your op was definitively not “go listen to when the doves cry and you will understand”. The answer, factually, was that he was a great song writer and a hit machine when he wanted to be. He was a brilliant guitar player, as good as just about any rock guitar God you care to name. He also played dozens of other instruments with similar virtuosity, and he was an innovative and influential music producer that changed the way music is produced in such a fundamental way that stuff he pioneered is still being used on modern tracks. Also he could sing like nobody’s business, with a range that was pretty stupid. That it’s hard to appreciate all that from just listening to his hits, but the hits are a good place to start. Oh, and you don’t have to like his music to appreciate the above. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/231 "2016-04-26T01:37:45Z")
> [@CC](#): > > OP here. I posted in GQ hoping to get some specific and technical answers. Not a lot here, but I did go listen - as so many of his fans here are suggesting - to _When The Doves Cry_. I believe that if you really love Prince, you’ll probably love this piece. However, musically - and that was my basic question - there’s nothing here. After a mindless 30 seconds of the same drum track intro, there are essentially two chords and a “melody” made of two notes. This may be a great song for a lot of people, but it hardly rises to the level of great music to me or to, I’m sure, lots of people, including other musicians. Meh. You listened to .2% (not 2% - .2%) of his published music and you are ready to write him off? 4 minutes out of 26 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/232 "2016-04-26T01:43:41Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I’m picturing a white dude singing it and it’s a bummer. My god, really? > > Looking backward is a complicated game. Prince was a pop music artist who wanted to sell records. I’m sure he wanted to sell to everyone including black people and white people. We don’t have to specify. Why on earth would be go into the rock scene and not sell any records? Makes no sense. He got radio play, had pop records, sold to lots of people. But he’s not a rock hero too. You can’t have it all ways. Unless you’re on planet purple. Having it both ways (and being 'a complicated game) is the very definition of transcending genres. How many other R&B artists (or even funk or 'black pop) broke out into lead guitar solos in the middle of a song (that sometimes lasted nearly a minute or two). That’s a rock thing. You rarely even see (hear) a pop artist do that on a radio version of their song. Also, just for the record, I’m looking at the awards he won, none of them are based on race a few for R&B, but none for black pop, urban contemporary, sepia or anything else you may have mentioned. If these were charitable, I assume he would have won awards in them. In fact, have you seen any of these as an actual, accepted, genre? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/233 "2016-04-26T01:56:17Z")
Now you actually are just being offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/234 "2016-04-26T02:00:43Z")
A cite for “race music” or “sepia” or “blues” or “jazz” or “rhythm and blues” or “R&B/soul” or “urban” is not a cite for “black pop.” Show me a cite for “black pop” as an actual name _in mainstream use_ by some widely read source as a name for a marketing category or artistic genre of music. If it’s a term you have chosen yourself to use then just admit to it, define what you mean by it, and why you think it’s useful to bring up in a discussion about Prince. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/235 "2016-04-26T02:06:12Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > A cite for “race music” or “sepia” or “blues” or “jazz” or “rhythm and blues” or “R&B/soul” or “urban” is not a cite for “black pop.” Show me a cite for “black pop” as an actual name _in mainstream use_ by some widely read source as a name for a marketing category or artistic genre of music. Not just that…there was a black pop chart 100 years ago (which turned into sepia). But so far, he’s not only refused to cite it, but he somehow thinks he answered the question and made me look like the bad guy for questioning him. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/236 "2016-04-26T02:18:46Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > But so far, he’s not only refused to cite it, but he somehow thinks he answered the question and made me look like the bad guy for questioning him. No, he hasn’t made you look like a bad guy. The rest of us are following along just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/237 "2016-04-26T02:31:14Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Music was marketed to black people under the rubric of “race recordings” for years and years. If you have heard Blind Lemon Jefferson or Robert Johnson, or John Lee Hooker, or a thousand others, that’s what they were making records for originally. You can see it in catalogs (Like sears) prior to the 40s. After that: > > “In 1940 the leading trade magazine, Billboard, began to publish charts in three categories: pop, rhythm and blues (first called race music, then sepia), and …” > > Jerry Wexler later of Atlantic Records invented the term Rhythm and Blues as a journalist for Billboard, to replace previous terms in the late 40s. > > My question to you is do you really not know anything about this? Of course recordings were made for the African-American market. In the 1920’s, Ralph Peer did A&R work for Okeh–a small company that had recorded European groups for the immigrant market. (The big companies had the classical & theatrical stars.) He continued to look for specialized markets. > [@](#): > > “Mr. Peer went south to investigate … He found a) that the Negroes were buying records of their own people in great quantities and b) that the Negroes of Richmond, Virginia invariably referred to themselves as ‘The Race.’”… > > There was, to be clear, nothing demeaning about the use of the term “race” in that context at the time, though the term “race records” would often be found objectionable years later and would be dropped throughout the recording industry. What Peer heard in Richmond, and would also have seen in editorials of the country’s leading black newspaper, the _Chicago Defender_, was a positive use and promotion of the term by sophisticated African Americans; being “a race man,” for example, was a compliment, suggesting rightful interest, pride, and activist advocacy. From Barry Mazor’s _Ralph Peer and the Making of Popular Roots Music_. Of course, white people always listened to black music–live or recorded. It went the other way around, as Mazor pointed out in his book on Jimmie Rodgers, beginning with B B King reminiscing about Rodgers’ records & going in a surprising direction: > [@](#): > > If B. B. King’s musical tastes proved expansive and his own celebrated style relatively sophisticated and urban, another Mississippi blues man, Chester Burnett— better known as Howlin’ Wolf— with his steel-wool-and-blood voice as fierce, warm, and astringent as American music would ever know, was obviously made of rougher-hewn, more rural stuff. Wolf would regularly bring up Jimmie Rodgers as a key influence, even to perplexed interviewers who didn’t suspect the connection and certainly had not asked about it. For example, in a 1970 backstage interview with filmmaker Topper Carew, after talking about the first record he ever heard as a boy, one by “Mother of the Blues” Ma Rainey, and praising the guitar playing of Blind Lemon Jefferson for its clarity, the Wolf gleefully volunteered, “And then, my man that I dug, that I really dug, that I got my yodel from, was Jimmie Rodgers. See, he yodeled, and I turned it into something more of a howl.” You _have_ heard of B B King & Howlin’ Wolf? Or do you just ignore them as more “black pop”? If you don’t like Prince, so what? You just aren’t up to lecturing us about American music. (Note that I have named my sources.) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/238 "2016-04-26T02:32:29Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > No, he hasn’t made you look like a bad guy. The rest of us are following along just fine. Let me rephrase ‘he’s seems to think I’m a bad guy for asking him to cite what he’s saying’. Is that closer? I don’t think I’m in the wrong here, asking him for proof that ‘black pop’ or ‘sepia’ was something that was being charted 100 years ago and worse (in my eyes) instead of coming back with cites, he’s coming back with things like ‘do you really not know anything about this?’. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/239 "2016-04-26T02:32:41Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > No, he hasn’t made you look like a bad guy. The rest of us are following along just fine. Yeah, the guy who says stuff like this is not coming off as the good guy: > [@drad\_dog](#): > > He is now that you want to look back and pretend you live in a post-racial purple planet. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > If you look up next to your monitor there’s little cup with purple kool-aid in it. You haven’t drunk it yet. When you do everything will become clear. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > Unless you’re on planet purple. And this is just so much horse hockey: > [@drad\_dog](#): > > When you use the term “black pop” you are giving something a very high compliment and bar to leap over. > … > > “Black Pop” came up a long time back in the thread as a positive attribute of older music, and I was being honest about what I felt about it’s direction. > [@](#): > > It describes music made for a black mass audience throughout the history of recordings It’s either a compliment (which, :rolleyes: seems just like condescending bullshit) or it’s a simple descriptive term for a category of music. Which is it? It can’t be both for the purposes of this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/240 "2016-04-26T02:36:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Prince would not have become a household name if Purple Rain (the movie, not the album) hadn’t been squarely aimed at rock fans. That the main characters werent white didn’t pose a big problem because the music was so accessible to an audience hungry for a fresh raw take on the genre. But they still had to make Prince’s character be biracial to seal his “crossover” appeal. Which, in 2016, should embarrass us all. But given what he was up against, I can’t say him I blame him for playing up the “am I black or white” schtick. I wouldn’t call it a schtick. I think the either/both/ambiguous stylings of Prince–in several areas, race not foremost among them–were a central part of his artistry throughout his peak-popularity period. “Am I straight or gay” sure wasn’t a natural for mass appeal in the early 1980s. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896.md?page=13)