# Why is Prince considered to be a genius? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 23, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896 "2016-04-23T13:39:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/321 "2016-05-16T18:54:22Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > His music is the type that’s better than it sounds maybe? > > . Is that really one of your criteria for artistic genius? That you personally enjoy it? Because that’s nothing more than “you kids, get off my lawn.” ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/322 "2016-05-16T19:38:25Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Totally. Not in this case though. > > I agree that he needed an inner editor. There is a reason why after he went Indy(ish) in the 90s that you had to work harder to find the good stuff. He released a lot of it. Not everything is a gem. > > But if you look only a > > 1. his vocal ability. Even if you don’t like it > 2. his guitar playing ability > 3. the plethora of other instruments he played. Seriously he released a half dozen albums where he was the only musician and his touring stage show needed 15 people to recreate the music. > 4. how he changed music with his production in ways you still here on Beyonce songs today (again even if you don’t like it. I prefer lofi myself) > 5. the quality of his lyrics > 6. the quality of his on stage performance > > You have an artist that is almost unparalleled. > > I can make similar lists for dozens of other artists including ones I don’t like. You listed a lot of big accomplishments. But it’s telling that you left out one thing: The quality of his music. Words and music are really the only things I would judge a musician on, and music is on top by a mile. Bob Dylan is the only word genius that I know. His lyrics are ingenious. Are Prince’s? That’s the elephant in the room for me. A polymath isn’t necessarily a genius. This is the “sammy davis jr.” argument. You are making the case for him as the greatest all around entertainer of his time, not a genius. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/323 "2016-05-16T19:52:11Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > You listed a lot of big accomplishments. But it’s telling that you left out one thing: > > The quality of his music. > > Words and music are really the only things I would judge a musician on, and music is on top by a mile. Bob Dylan is the only word genius that I know. His lyrics are ingenious. Are Prince’s? > > That’s the elephant in the room for me. A polymath isn’t necessarily a genius. This is the “sammy davis jr.” argument. You are making the case for him as the greatest all around entertainer of his time, not a genius. Eh, Ok. I’ll agree with you there. It’s possible you are working from a different, but similar, definition of genius than I am. I don’t want to bring up the quality of his music because there is a fair measure of subjectivity and taste in that kind of evaluation (at least there is if we are going to talk about it with the level of depth that I feel I have the energy to go into. It’s possible to talk about the music objectively but I honestly don’t want to break the songs down further than they have been already. That’s a lot of work. I would rather cite influence, measurable skill, and innovation. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/324 "2016-05-16T19:52:43Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Bob Dylan is the only word genius that I know. His lyrics are ingenious. Are Prince’s? There’s no objective measure for this, come on now. All the same … one vote here for “_Prince’s lyrics are ingenious_”. > [@drad\_dog](#): > > That’s the elephant in the room for me. A polymath isn’t necessarily a genius. If Prince had only played guitar and wrote for the guitar – never sang lead, never wrote lyrics – he’d be a genius on his guitar work alone. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/325 "2016-05-16T22:14:44Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > There’s no objective measure for this, come on now. > > All the same … one vote here for “_Prince’s lyrics are ingenious_”. > > If Prince had only played guitar and wrote for the guitar – never sang lead, never wrote lyrics – he’d be a genius on his guitar work alone. That explains something. I don’t think any musician is a genius based on guitar work alone. To me that’s grade inflation. Songwriters are the only geniuses to me. You must think there are a lot of guitar playing geniuses out there if that’s the case. A lot of the people we consider stellar guitarists got that rep by playing the greatest songs. The melodies they play and the feelings they evoke come out of the songs. Not separable or distinguishable, to me. No passionate great song = no notes from an instrument can make up for that. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/326 "2016-05-16T22:34:06Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > That explains something. I don’t think any musician is a genius based on guitar work alone. To me that’s grade inflation. Songwriters are the only geniuses to me. > > You must think there are a lot of guitar playing geniuses out there if that’s the case. A lot of the people we consider stellar guitarists got that rep by playing the greatest songs. The melodies they play and the feelings they evoke come out of the songs. Not separable or distinguishable, to me. No passionate great song = no notes from an instrument can make up for that. I would point to both Purple Rain and Let’s Go Crazy as fitting your definition, but you don’t dig his music. I strongly disagree that songwriters are the only genius though. Some amazing and, yes, genius musicians don’t write music. I’m thinking YoYo Ma off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/327 "2016-05-16T22:40:12Z")
Hey drad dog what are your thoughts on James Brown? Good Bad Overrated? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/328 "2016-05-16T22:43:36Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > That explains something. I don’t think any musician is a genius based on guitar work alone. To me that’s grade inflation. Songwriters are the only geniuses to me. > > You must think there are a lot of guitar playing geniuses out there if that’s the case. A lot of the people we consider stellar guitarists got that rep by playing the greatest songs. The melodies they play and the feelings they evoke come out of the songs. Not separable or distinguishable, to me. No passionate great song = no notes from an instrument can make up for that. Purple Rain tears me up almost every time (I’m not exaggerating.) Very few songs can do that to me. I understand your mileage varies, but lack of passion and soul in his music is not a valid criticism from my point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/329 "2016-05-16T23:37:23Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > He isn’t a genius just because “everybody says” he is. You’re being deliberately contrary, and it’s wearing a little thin. We get that you don’t like his music. Not really my cup of tea either. But one of these days you are going to have to realize how little weight your own personal opinion carries. That you, personally, are not impressed is evidence of nothing. You don’t have to like him, but you have to give him his due. All objective measures say he was a genius. In songwriting, playing, performing, producing, collaborating and self-promoting, there are very few who were his equal. Praise and accolades from the press? Check. Praise and accolades from the fans? Check. Praise and accolades from other artists? Check. Massive album sales and sold-out performances? Check. A career that _defined success_ for over 30 years? Check. I have never owned a single recording from him, and I would still put him head to head with _anybody you got_, because this is how we keep score. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/330 "2016-05-16T23:41:27Z")
One of the things I sadly didn’t appreciate until after he passed was what an amazing live performer he was. I have been watching YouTube uploads of live concerts almost every day. He was as good as anyone I have seen. My favorite performance is him doing a song that he gave away to Sheila E. [- YouTube](https://youtu.be/6aI-9QGjcA4) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/331 "2016-05-17T00:06:37Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > That explains something. I don’t think any musician is a genius based on guitar work alone. To me that’s grade inflation. Songwriters are the only geniuses to me. > > You must think there are a lot of guitar playing geniuses out there if that’s the case. A lot of the people we consider stellar guitarists got that rep by playing the greatest songs. The melodies they play and the feelings they evoke come out of the songs. Not separable or distinguishable, to me. No passionate great song = no notes from an instrument can make up for that. Speaking as a guitarist: go fuck yourself, you fool. If I need to defend the concept of genius as an instrumentalist…wait, why am I even talking to you again? I have reported this post. But still: go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/332 "2016-05-17T00:10:02Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Speaking as a guitarist: go fuck yourself, you fool. If I need to defend the concept of genius as an instrumentalist…wait, why am I even talking to you again? > > I have reported this post. But still: go fuck yourself. HA! ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/333 "2016-05-17T00:11:47Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > One of the things I sadly didn’t appreciate until after he passed was what an amazing live performer he was. Playing live is really where Prince shined as an instrumentalist, especially as a lead rock guitarist. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/334 "2016-05-17T00:12:45Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > You’re being deliberately contrary, and it’s wearing a little thin. > > We get that you don’t like his music. Not really my cup of tea either. But one of these days you are going to have to realize how little weight your own personal opinion carries. That you, personally, are not impressed is evidence of nothing. You don’t have to like him, but you have to give him his due. > > All objective measures say he was a genius. In songwriting, playing, performing, producing, collaborating and self-promoting, there are very few who were his equal. > > Praise and accolades from the press? Check. > Praise and accolades from the fans? Check. > Praise and accolades from other artists? Check. > Massive album sales and sold-out performances? Check. > A career that _defined success_ for over 30 years? Check. > > I have never owned a single recording from him, and I would still put him head to head with _anybody you got_, because this is how we keep score. There are no objective measures of genius. And I don’t owe Prince anything “due” except what he has earned. Furthermore it’s not anyone’s **due** to be considered a genius. That’s the icing on the cake if it should so be. As far as this thread: As one comedian said on the Johnny Carson show “I’m the only thing on NBC right now” How could it be wearing thin if you are participating? And you aren’t even a fan of Prince. I don’t think he’s so hot. I am just as important as anyone else discussing this: Not very. You should read your own statement. You don’t have to silence the message. If you’re sure, why be defensive? It’s just another opinion. That’s why we’re here. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/335 "2016-05-17T00:22:34Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > I would point to both Purple Rain and Let’s Go Crazy as fitting your definition, but you don’t dig his music. I strongly disagree that songwriters are the only genius though. Some amazing and, yes, genius musicians don’t write music. I’m thinking YoYo Ma off the top of my head. I should have said geniuses “in pop/rock”. I’m sure there are instrumental geniuses in Jazz, and probably in repertory classical. I’m not seeing the parallels between Yo-Yo and P. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/336 "2016-05-17T00:33:54Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Speaking as a guitarist: go fuck yourself, you fool. If I need to defend the concept of genius as an instrumentalist…wait, why am I even talking to you again? > > I have reported this post. But still: go fuck yourself. Leaving aside the attempted insult, isn’t this an incredibly pompous thing to say? You reported yourself? So you were speaking to yourself? Makes sense. Complete regression. You sound unhinged man. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/337 "2016-05-17T01:05:19Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > You listed a lot of big accomplishments. But it’s telling that you left out one thing: > > The quality of his music. > > Words and music are really the only things I would judge a musician on, and music is on top by a mile. Bob Dylan is the only word genius that I know. His lyrics are ingenious. Are Prince’s? > > That’s the elephant in the room for me. A polymath isn’t necessarily a genius. This is the “sammy davis jr.” argument. You are making the case for him as the greatest all around entertainer of his time, not a genius. Your idea of genius might be incongruent with its definition. Again, no one is saying Prince is unrivaled. But in the music field he’s in the top 1%. That’s basically what genius is in intellect. I don’t see why other fields couldn’t use the same percentiles to rank ability. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/338 "2016-05-17T01:12:23Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > I should have said geniuses “in pop/rock”. I’m sure there are instrumental geniuses in Jazz, and probably in repertory classical. I’m not seeing the parallels between Yo-Yo and P. Lol. There are many other pop/rock geniuses. Weird Al, George Michael, the dude who sang Safety Dance. You don’t have to be poor and unappreciated to be a genius in your field. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/339 "2016-05-17T01:20:22Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Leaving aside the attempted insult, isn’t this an incredibly pompous thing to say? You reported yourself? So you were speaking to yourself? Makes sense. Complete regression. You sound unhinged man. Yep. I’m the one who’s pompous. Hooboy - you go with that. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896/340 "2016-05-17T01:25:21Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Speaking as a guitarist: go fuck yourself, you fool. If I need to defend the concept of genius as an instrumentalist…wait, why am I even talking to you again? > > I have reported this post. But still: go fuck yourself. I 100% support this post. If you get a warning, you can give half of it to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prince-considered-to-be-a-genius/752896.md?page=18)