drad dog, do yourself a favor and Google what Joni has to say about Prince. She disagrees with you.
ETA: Q&A with Joni Mitchell - Nymag
Go down about halfway and look for Prince in bold.
I hope this will be the first of many such threads. I eagerly await “Michael Jordan, was he really a great basketball player?” or " Einstein, a mediocre physicist" and “Shakespeare, was he really better than Dean Koontz?”
The thing is, Prince made rock music. That is undeniable. To some people, black people don’t make rock music, except for Jimi Hendrix, maybe. 1/2 of these people are named Ted Nugent.
People lump Prince in with " just RnB" because he was black. Yeah, he made what was considered RnB at the time, but he also was nothing like whatever standard pop RnB was at any time in his career. He made hit songs, pop songs, catchy songs, funky songs, and songs that rocked. He got play on mainstream and modern/alternative rock stations. He blended different styles and instruments. To me that certainly makes him more innovative than a garage rock band that used the same instruments and played the same type of music for 40 years.
I mean if you say “as a death metal fan” or a “acid jazz fan” that might make sense. But Prince made music that was accepted by rock fans and embraced as mainstream rock music at different points in his career. The biggest Prince fans I know are/were guys into rock. In fact I would say most people I know who were into “black music” during the height of his career were turned off by his flamboyance and either into like quiet storm, luther vandross type stuff, or more hip-hop flavored or macho RnB.
FWIW, many/most of the iconic “rock” songs and artists mentioned in this thread as counter-examples of actual big “rock” artists were very mainstream (and frankly tame/boring) POP.
Prince was Zappa + a more versatile instrumentalist and capable of writing vastly superior pop music. Both were unique and highly independent talents, but while I don’t know if Prince was better than Frank at everything*, he was either a little or a lot better at many things. Selling records not least of all. Also probably quirky eccentricity, though lord knows Zappa was no slouch there either :D.
- Dunno if Prince was ever much interested in composing classical music or 20-minute jazz-fusion instrumentals. But given his versatility and work ethic I’m guessing he could have made a pretty good show of it had he been.
Well stated. As for the last *'d note: I wish I knew how to provide a link to the song She Spoke to Me, off the soundtack of the movie Girl 6 by Spike Lee. Starts off as a fun, pop-with-a-Latin tinge song. Then it breaks down to full, hardcore, out there jazz. He is clearly NOT playing all the instruments in this case - there are Coltrane-type sax solos - but this is his song and it holds up with any jazz out there.
Huh. Maybe not. I would be interested in hearing you elaborate. So you know where I’m coming from, I am probably an early millennial (graduated in 2000 which was the definition at one point. I’m very much not a gen x). But I have been studying music since I was 8, classical first then years of playing blues and jazz guitar. I am/was a music obsessive (read nerd) and am intimately familiar with all the songs you posted. Know all the words and everything.
Like I said, it’s one thing to not like his music. But to just dismiss his ability and influence is consciously putting aside facts. I don’t like Miles Davis much*, that doesn’t mean I can’t see that he was a revolutionary genius. It just means I won’t listen to Bitches Brew voluntarily. Like I said, I won’t fault you for not liking Prince, but from where I’m standing it looks like you are conflating subjective and objective criticism. You say I’m wrong. Great. Expand on that.
*I actually really like the Birth of the Cool. But Kind of Blue is boring and all his fusion stuff is a better intellectual exercise than it is enjoyable. But that’s opinion. He was a visionary. That’s not open to opinion.
“Purple Rain” was released in 1984 - I still listen to any song from the album beginning to end if I hear it today. We actually just finished watching “Purple Rain” as a memorial to Prince, and the music was absolutely fantastic.
Vocal ranges of the great singers - Prince is number three. If you can get your hands on “Solo” from “Come” and “Damn U” from the “Love Symbol” album, take a listen - in my opinion, those are two songs that showcase his range. Unlike Mariah Carey (number two on that list), even when he went super-high or super-low, he still sounded good and musical.
The short answer to why Prince is considered a musical genius is because he was.
I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this but when he put his first album out in 1976, the one where he played all 27 instruments (that part has been mentioned already), he was only 18 years old.
I envy you. I wish I’d had any good musical education in grade school.
I just watched some of purple rain. Then I watched the first three performances on SNLs prince tribute. It’s clear he’s a great guitar player. I don’t doubt he’s influential in many ways. But this might not represent genius.
I have to judge musical works by originality and distinctiveness in: chord progressions, melodies, and harmonies, passion, feel, tone and intangibles I guess. (Duh)
I truly felt like I was hearing the same thing on each SNL clip. It’s very busy and crowded with a lot of funky strutting but without a strong melodic motif or goal usually. That’s the only thing I recognize as excellent in music. Therefore I question it. I don’t get moved from one place to another. So it loses the function of music I look for. He is talented, and able, and makes show, but Some people get so good at what they do that some passion or drama might go missing. I don’t buy heavy breathing, dirty talk and chest hair as passion necessarily. Not even great guitar playing either for that matter. And certainly not popularity.
i just read a book on Miles and got into spinning some. Check out the gaps you left in the timeline (Dig, (and others on Riverside I think), Blue Haze, Round about Midnight (and others w/coltrane), Someday my prince (Hey!), ESP, Smiles, Sketches of Spain, Porgy etc.)
Well that’s my point, as rock I don’t find it catchy enough.
The songs I gave as examples were these :
Waterloo Sunset
Expecting to Fly
Ohh Baby Baby
Cause we’ve ended as lovers
Tom Trauberts blues
Court and Spark
Eleanor Rigby
Won’t get fooled again
I’m not sure if you meant these as tame and boring, and only mainstream.
#1 had better be Freddie… 
I have a friend who’s a huge Prince fan. This guy knows music and had his own recording studio until he sold it about a year ago in a fit of despair over what music has become these days. Anyway, he’s followed Prince and Prince’s career for decades and he told me yesterday that Prince once stated that most of his popular radio hits were really just doodles. So here we have seven songs that were monster hits, songs that like you say almost any musician would love to have on his resume, and Prince created them pretty much just messing around.
I think the thing that really makes him a genius is that he had so much top quality music in his head all the time. He once told an interviewer that he could go sit in the corner right then and write a song if he wanted to, that they were there in his head all the time and all he had to do was let 'em out. And then when you combine that ability with his incredibly vast multi-instrument abilities and his production and technical skill, it’s hard to imagine who would qualify as a musical genius if he doesn’t.
I’m glad someone else started this thread. I frankly see nothing noteworthy in any of Prince’s music.
I’m hugely indifferent to pop/rock anyway, but his stuff sounds awfully like it was generated by a computer.
Well. That was sort of the point for a lot of it. Do you criticize Tom Morello for making his guitar sound too much like it was a dj scratching records? Unless I misunderstood your criticism and you mean something else.
drad dog and williambaskerville - you are stepping into a thread asking why Prince is considered a genius.
You may want to discuss this with other Dopers, or in the case of williambaskerville, merely threadshit, but whatever.
But when you say "i have no musical training, haven’t listed to “black pop” in 40 years (with no apparent awareness that Prince in NO WAY fits in that box), and that you “just don’t hear the melody” how can you possibly expect to be taken seriously?
If you want to say “I am not hearing it. But I hear that people I admire like Joni Mitchell holds him in the highest regard, so perhaps there is something I can learn” that would be a much better approach for you.
Sirius Xm has made channel 50 a Prince tribute channel for the time being. If you have satellite radio access you can listen to some stuff that doesn’t get as much airplay.
I actually have a very high bar for the moniker of genius. Prince, and pretty much everyone else listed in the thread so far doesn’t really qualify. No matter how you slice it, though, Prince was pretty singular entertainer,
Rundgren or Zappa being great has as much bearing on Prince being great as Hank Williams’ or Beethoven’s greatness does. We can assemble bullshit lists of firsts or accomplishments that they or other candidates made, but you can’t usually judge art on some relative scale between artists. You have to take each artist on their own merits and judge their success on those merits. If you show up expecting to judge Pollock by the same metric that you judged Rembrandt, you’re setting yourself up for disappointment and failure. They’re very different works of art, with different ideas behind them, and different goals. Judging art beyond a metric of “I like it/don’t like it” is hard, and you’re unlikely to come up with a convincing argument for or against without experiencing tons of someone’s work. Arguing from ignorance isn’t going to get very far.
Watch this video of an All-Star Tribute to George Harrison, and see what Prince does on guitar (3:30 mark). He basically shreds for the duration of the song, never completely taking over, but accompanying on a 3-minute lead.
I found Prince’s “Brand New Orleans” really good, and it’s totally instrumental jazz. Heard it for the first time yesterday. Made me yearn for some hard lemonade and a hot day in the shade laid back in a patio chair, which is basically my litmus test for quality jazz.
