# Why is prostitution illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275 "2012-01-12T13:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![space\_loner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@space\_loner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/space_loner)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/101 "2012-01-20T19:41:35Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I agree with you on everything except this, for a number of reasons: > > In jurisdictions with mandatory testing, sex workers who don’t want to be tested don’t stop working, they simply work outside the legal system. You then continue to have an illegal sex industry, and the workers in that industry face all the dangers that illegal sex workers everywhere face. > > Sex workers in these jurisdictions have complained that mandatory testing can remove clients’ incentive to use condoms. Clients think the sex worker must be “clean” if he or she is allowed to work - and since it’s often only their own risk of infection that they’re concerned with, they then don’t think they need to use a condom and they pressure the sex worker to allow them do without it. > > Mandatory testing stigmatises sex workers as carriers of disease, even though (as I discussed earlier) they often have low prevalence rates, and are often at greater risk of receiving an infection _from_ a client than transmitting one \*to \* a client (yet clients are never subject to mandatory testing!) > > Mandatory testing is also unreliable, since a person can test negative for a period of time after a new infection. > > Finally, the cost involved in mandatory testing simply isn’t justified by the available evidence on its effectiveness. UNAIDS has gone as far as to say there is _no_ public health justification for it. The WHO also supports making testing voluntary. The amount of money it costs could be put to better use in real preventive measures. I don’t know where you are getting this from. In any place where prostitution has been fully legalized (and this invariably includes mandatory testing), sex workers and their clients who care about their own well-being and security enough to abide by the laws have proven to be the absolute majority. ---
**Author:** ![BSweet69](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@BSweet69](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BSweet69)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/102 "2012-01-21T13:36:34Z")
> [@B.Serum](#): > > To address the OP, I think it’s a combination of: > [ul] > [li]the western world’s puritanical yet frequently hypocritical attitude towards sexuality — the U.S. has no shortage of draconian sex laws, and I’m convinced the same-sex marriage opposition has little to do with “protecting marriage” so much as “revulsion of butt-sex.”)[/li][li]well-meaning concern for the welfare of women who are either legitimately victims or are perceived as such.[/li][li]the stigma of these factors create is enough of a political death-wish that most legislators/politicians won’t touch it with a 10-foot pole (except for ol’ Ron Paul, kind of).[/li][/ul] > > Personally, while I think we ought be able to do what we want to with our bodies so long as it’s not hurting anyone; the primary deciding factor for me is the welfare of the people who are engaging in it. Stories of women who are sold into sex slavery or women who are abused and treated like shit are the things that give me the most pause when figuring out how I feel on the matter. That’s why I find the first-hand accounts by **BSweet69** and **Illuminatiprimus** so valuable. > > In addition to their contributions, I strongly recommend another ex-sex-worker [Maggie McNeill, “The Honest Courtesan”](http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/) who is a prolific and really intelligent writer on the subject. There was also a an interesting (and frequently frustrating) [Intelligence Squared](http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/past-debates/its-wrong-to-pay-for-sex/) debate on whether “It’s Wrong to Pay for Sex.” A firsthand account of a “John” provided the basis for an interesting graphic novel [Paying for It](http://www.amazon.com/Paying-Chester-Brown/dp/1770460489). +1 and thank you for a really intelligent response! I, too, worry about the sex workers who are in a bad situation of abuse. I chose my profession. They did not. I have control over my business; those women do not. xo ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/103 "2012-01-21T17:09:27Z")
> [@BSweet69](#): > > Abortion is legal only under limited circumstances. You know there are arguments constantly about how far along in a pregnancy a woman can be before they won’t do it. I think it’s 12 weeks. Abortion is legal in the US under most circumstances in which there is demand for it. In countries where that isn’t the case (such as where the law allows it only for rape or serious health/life risk) women whose pregnancies don’t fall within those parameters often turn to illegal abortion. > [@](#): > > Decriminalizing/legalizing is only the first step in changing the way society treats sex workers. I agree, but that doesn’t make it any less of a false dichotomy to suggest that the choice is between mandatory testing and stigmatisation. New Zealand and parts of Australia have made significant strides toward destigmatisation without mandatory testing. > [@](#): > > Prostitution is only legal in one teeny-tiny area of the entire United States. Of course that leaves a lot of room for illegal industry! Hello? Hello? Two of the three places I cited are not even in the United States. And prostitution is legal throughout those two places. > [@](#): > > I don’t see how you get “privileged few” out of any of my statements. It’s not your statements themselves, but how the policy you advocate works in practice. Imposing conditions such as mandatory testing, licensing and the other common regulations invariably creates a two-tier system - and it’s usually the most vulnerable who end up in the second (illegal) tier. If the purpose of making sex work legal is to protect sex workers, why would you want a legal system that excludes those most in need of protection? > [@](#): > > I believe it should be absolutely shocking and of rare truth that a sex worker feels they don’t need or deserve to be regularly tested. There is a big difference between being regularly tested, and being regularly tested and having to report your results as a condition of your being allowed to work. Sex workers can and do get tested regularly even where nobody is checking their HIV status, you know this. The purpose of mandatory testing is not to protect _their_ sexual health, it’s to protect the public _from them_. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/104 "2012-01-21T17:36:42Z")
> [@space\_loner](#): > > I don’t know where you are getting this from. In any place where prostitution has been fully legalized (and this invariably includes mandatory testing), sex workers and their clients who care about their own well-being and security enough to abide by the laws have proven to be the absolute majority. Wow, you’re wrong on so many counts. First of all, I don’t know of anyplace where prostitution has been “fully legalised”. That would mean that there is no such thing as illegal prostitution, either in practice or in theory, and that is not the case anywhere. If it was, then by definition every sex worker and client would “abide by the laws” because there would be no law for them to break. Secondly, mandatory testing is _not_ invariably included where prostitution is (generally) legal. New Zealand, New South Wales and the Netherlands are three prominent examples of jurisdictions where there is no mandatory testing. In other parts of Australia (Queensland, Victoria, ACT) it’s effectively mandatory in the brothels but not for sole operators. Finally, I don’t know how on earth you think you would _prove_ that the number of legal sex workers exceeds the number of illegal sex workers (the latter aren’t exactly lining up to be counted). But to return to the jurisdictions I cited earlier, the illegal industry in Victoria is widely acknowledged as being larger than the legal industry, because street prostitution is totally illegal; brothels are so stringently regulated that it is easier both to run and to get work in the illegal ones; and the registration process to work alone from home involves such a huge invasion of privacy that most sole operators won’t bother with it. In Greece, it is agreed by everyone that only a small minority of sex workers bother with the registration process. I haven’t seen any size estimates for Nevada, but I’d be willing to bet the number of sex workers in the approximately 30 legal brothels is less than the number working illegally in Las Vegas alone, and certainly far less than in Vegas and Reno combined. ---
**Author:** ![cplif](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/48db29/32.png) [@cplif](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cplif)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/105 "2012-01-22T11:40:44Z")
I always had the impression that prostitution was banned because the money fueled “organised crime” but that may be just another (political) excuse. One thing is that banned or not, I’ve seen hooking in one sort or another just about all over the world, with the possible exception of some very small rich dictatures (and I woudn’t bet even there) Another is a short pique for those who “don’t want hookers down their street”. I rented a flat in the “red light” area of Paris (at that epoque), supplied with a hefty “matronne” about fiftyish at the street door. She had a studio in the building for her work, shared with two other colleagues. I would defy any housebreaker, salesman, or other unsolicited person to get into that building. I am not saying we should populate our streets with prostitutes, but I do like familiar faces to say hello to, baker, neighbor, and so on. I could have left my keys to these women for the plumber or electrician, without the sightest hesitation… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/106 "2012-01-22T11:53:18Z")
> [@cplif](#): > > I always had the impression that prostitution was banned because the money fueled “organised crime” but that may be just another (political) excuse. Well, first bans on prostitution are a lot older than organized crime. And even if that’s a present rationale it’s a bad one since making something illegal while failing to curtail it only ensures that any profits end up in the hands of criminals. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/107 "2012-01-22T21:30:46Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Well, I can only go on the experiences I had, but really I don’t think the model of business I was in was really conducive to me saying “sorry you’re not my type”. > > One was me being an escort through an agency meaning that I turned up to them and did what they asked me to. If I’d turned up and said “yeah, you’re not my type, sorry” then I wouldn’t have got any more work. Similarly in the brothel you’re sitting in that waiting room for hours waiting for a client to come in and choose someone, and you hope it’s you as you only get paid per client. If you start being picky about who you see you don’t get paid, plus your worth as an asset to the establishment is minimal. > > If I’d been working for myself as an escort that would probably be different, I could of course exercise my right to discriminate in clients, but as **BSweet69** says, you’re the one paid to be pretty, not them. In the instances where I’ve bought sex myself, I don’t want to have to consider whether I’m going to meet the expectations of the prostitute. It would be a bit like going to a nice restaurant to treat yourself to a nice meal and the chef coming out and saying he’ll cook for you if you can create something he approves of first to show you’re worth it. > > **polar bear** - IIRC you mainly see girls in a fairly large brothel setting where there is a large availability of clients and workers, so I think your experience of the dynamic of the business is probably different to mine. I think you are right in how different set-ups have different dynamics. It is also true that it is not conducive to sell ‘no’ to potential clients, but some girls are in the position that they can afford it. Don’t get me wrong, most girls will take on anyone (as long as they are clean, respectful, etc.), but they can still ‘discriminate’ between customers. I don’t want to veer off topic, but I was in a couple of clubs this weekend and of the 4 girls I was with, 2 seem to adjust their ‘service’ to the type of customer. One girl only told me, as part of a general chat, about the difference of being with someone her own age and guys that are a lot older. If this is really the case, I don’t know…she didn’t hold back with me in any case. With the second girl I know for sure. Without going into too many details, she was very gilfriendy with me (ie a lot of kissing), while two other guys that I talked to were told that she ‘doesn’t kiss’. Difference is probably that I’m in my twenties, and those other guys in their 50’s or 60’s. In any case, I would at least have it legal that a sexworker is allowed to make his or her desicion of taking clients on. Obviously rejecting clients will be bad for business, but that is a risk a sexworker should be able to make on his own. If there is a law that could be interpretated as ‘forcing’ (sorry I’m struggling to find a better word) a prosititute to treat any client (age, race, sex, haircolor) the same; it should be amended or changed if prostitution were to be legalized. But that’s just my opinion. Your point about not being an asset to a brothel if you reject clients is an extremely important thing to consider (when legalizing brothels/prostitution). I’m really not sure policy makers think these things trough in enough detail. If a brothel can throw you out if you refuse clients, that pretty much means your freedom of declining a customer is compromised. In all honesty, this is probably true for the clubs I go to as well. Maybe that’s why it is almost ‘not done’ to complain about girls (unless they make promises they won’t keep or try to rip you off). That’s a little too much relying on the decency of punters for my money. What buying sex is concerned, I feel that honesty works best. If a girl doesn’t want to do something, but promises to do it anyway…it will show. Initially I felt a bit uncomfortable this weekend when the 60 year old told me she ‘doesn’t’ kiss while I had just told him she had no problems with kissing. But he immediately said he was glad she was honest, because it well never amount to much if the girl is doing something she doesn’t really want to. Mind you, we’re talking about a 20 year old girl that has been in the job for a matter of weeks. But this all seems again to be very dependent on the dynamic of the business. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/108 "2012-01-22T22:18:43Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Secondly, mandatory testing is _not_ invariably included where prostitution is (generally) legal. New Zealand, New South Wales and the Netherlands are three prominent examples of jurisdictions where there is no mandatory testing. In other parts of Australia (Queensland, Victoria, ACT) it’s effectively mandatory in the brothels but not for sole operators. …indeed: mandatory testing is not part of the New Zealand legislation. For an insight into the way things work here here are the occupational safety and health guidelines for the sex industry. [http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/sexindustry.pdf](http://www.osh.dol.govt.nz/order/catalogue/pdf/sexindustry.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/109 "2012-01-23T23:15:54Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > Your point about not being an asset to a brothel if you reject clients is an extremely important thing to consider (when legalizing brothels/prostitution). I’m really not sure policy makers think these things trough in enough detail. If a brothel can throw you out if you refuse clients, that pretty much means your freedom of declining a customer is compromised. In all honesty, this is probably true for the clubs I go to as well. Maybe that’s why it is almost ‘not done’ to complain about girls (unless they make promises they won’t keep or try to rip you off). That’s a little too much relying on the decency of punters for my money. Yes and no - I don’t see why any service should be exempt from customer feedback, and if I go somewhere for a service and am not given it then as a customer I have a right to be pissed off. As a provider of the service, I need to consider my customers’ satisfaction if I want my business to be successful, and if “I” in this case is an individual working for myself then it’s absolutely my decision if I want to discriminate (as **BSweet69** has stated she does). If I, on the other hand, is a brothel/club of workers then that’s slightly different. There is of course a force working in the opposite direction which is that if an establishment fires people who won’t do everything and anything they’re told to, word of mouth is going to make it harder for it to recruit people. Okay, maybe that means they end up taking the desperate people who have no choice, but the world is full of those kinds of establishments and not all of them are in the sex industry - ever walked into a McDonalds? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/110 "2012-01-24T01:04:41Z")
Because women can’t be allowed to have that much power. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/111 "2012-01-27T03:12:38Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Now I’m confused. According to that map, prostitution is illegal in Thailand. Isn’t Thailand one of the big destinations for “sex tourism”? > [@ruadh](#): > > As I understand it, the Thai authorities pretty much turn a blind eye as long as the sex worker is overage. Which makes sense, really, given the realities they’re operating under. Why divert police attention to consenting adults when you’ve got so many paedophile tourists to worry about? That is correct. Prostitution is completely illegal in Thailand. On the other hand, police own many of the bars and brothels. (I recall one police official being gunned down in Long Gun Bar one afternoon before opening time back in the 1990s. He was the owner, and it was a business dispute.) Police also take a lot of bribes from bars, massage parlors and brothels to look the other way and provide “protection,” a very lucrative business. And testing of staff for STDs/HIV is mandatory, although some establishments are more conscientious about this than others. The commerce minister in the previous administration was the daughter of the owner of one of the largest massage parlors/brothels in Thailand, Cleopatra Massage. She made no bones about her family background. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/112 "2012-01-27T04:01:51Z")
> [@SGT42](#): > > Thank you for correcting a foreigner, that does not know your language well. I Liked your way better SGT. ---
**Author:** ![Indygrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@Indygrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indygrrl)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/113 "2012-01-29T23:28:08Z")
I wanted to jump in here and address WhyNot’s question about whether, in legalized prostitution, it would be legal to discriminate. I haven’t been a prostitute, but as most here know I’ve been a stripper for many years. I see legalized prostitution similarly to how things go in the strip club. I can pick and choose who I want to dance for, and if I don’t want to dance for certain types it’s pretty easy to avoid it. But, I think a person who goes into sex work is going to understand that it’s hard to make a living doing this work if you are bigoted or choosy. Obviously, prostitution like Bsweet69 is talking about, and dancing in a club are two different things, but to be successful they both require good people skills and compassion for men. You won’t get very far if you have a long list of what kind of men you won’t perform for. Also, I always have to laugh and shake my head when the inevitable “those poor women” comments come along. Sex workers are some of the most resourceful, independent women I’ve ever known, far moreso than people I’ve known in other industries. The very nature of the job requires a certain creativity and ability to roll with the punches, not to mention a sense of humor and flair for the weird. Whenever we get painted with the pathetic/desperate/damaged brush, I can’t help but roll my eyes. Sure, a lot of sex workers have had tough lives, but so have all sorts of people, and we land on our feet more often than not. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/114 "2012-01-30T03:04:52Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > Also, I always have to laugh and shake my head when the inevitable “those poor women” comments come along. Sex workers are some of the most resourceful, independent women I’ve ever known, far moreso than people I’ve known in other industries. The very nature of the job requires a certain creativity and ability to roll with the punches, not to mention a sense of humor and flair for the weird. Whenever we get painted with the pathetic/desperate/damaged brush, I can’t help but roll my eyes. Sure, a lot of sex workers have had tough lives, but so have all sorts of people, and we land on our feet more often than not. Exactly. As I said upthread: > [@Stoid](#): > > Because women can’t be allowed to have that much power. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/115 "2012-01-31T02:15:10Z")
> [@Indygrrl](#): > > Also, I always have to laugh and shake my head when the inevitable “those poor women” comments come along. Sex workers are some of the most resourceful, independent women I’ve ever known, far moreso than people I’ve known in other industries. The very nature of the job requires a certain creativity and ability to roll with the punches, not to mention a sense of humor and flair for the weird. Whenever we get painted with the pathetic/desperate/damaged brush, I can’t help but roll my eyes. Sure, a lot of sex workers have had tough lives, but so have all sorts of people, and we land on our feet more often than not. It is certainly that way in Thailand, but Westerners prefer to believe all the biased forced-prostitution tales, the vast majority of which are simply not true. The girls I know really take advantage of that when newbie guys come on the scene and try to “rescue” them. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/116 "2012-01-31T04:31:10Z")
All the cable news channels are constantly spewing programs about sex slavery and sex slaves and kinda imply that all prostitutes are nonconsensual sex slaves who haven’t been liberated from their owner/pimps yet. Sadly, this includes CNN and MSNBC, both channels go at the sex slavery thing like they were Fox News. There is a MOUNTAIN of misinformation out there. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2012, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275/117 "2012-01-31T11:46:29Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > All the cable news channels are constantly spewing programs about sex slavery and sex slaves and kinda imply that all prostitutes are nonconsensual sex slaves who haven’t been liberated from their owner/pimps yet. Sadly, this includes CNN and MSNBC, both channels go at the sex slavery thing like they were Fox News. There is a MOUNTAIN of misinformation out there. It all depends on the definitions you use and in agree that for most media outlets misinformation is the norm. But let’s just say that worldwide there are plenty of sexworkers that don’t get to ‘keep’ all their earning for themselves; also in western countries with legalized prostitution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-prostitution-illegal/609275.md?page=5)