# Why is racial grouping of diverse ethnicities with different backgrounds still considered acceptable? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 16, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662 "2023-10-16T18:00:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2023, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/61 "2023-10-29T21:05:04Z")
Hat tip to the construct of whiteness for erasing heritage! ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/62 "2023-11-08T14:39:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > (and by “modern”, I mean since Barth’s seminal 1969 essay) Wasn’t he the editor of _Ethnic Groups and Boundaries_? No matter. Race - as a concept - started being problematic in the aftermath of WWII. In 1952 UNESCO published _The Race Concept: Results of an Inquiry_ 1 which I think was the first thing that made an impact on the discourse in general. FWIW, nGram shows a slow and steady increase of _ethnicity_ starting in the 50’s and really gaining momentum in the 90’s. Another problem is that 'ethnicity\* seems to have different connotations in different countries > The term “ethnic” popularly connotes “race” in Britain, only less precisely, and with a lighter value load. In North America, by contrast, “race” most commonly means color, and “ethnics” are the descendants of relatively recent immigrants from non-English-speaking countries. “Ethnic” is not a noun in Britain. In effect there are no “ethnics”; there are only “ethnic relations”.2 However, I think _ethnicity/ethnic_ is rapidly losing its usefulness, as it seems that “polite” racists and bigots have hi-jacked the term. This in turn may correspond with the rise of use in media and academia, prompting bigots to adapt their language. 1 [https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000073351](https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000073351) 2 Wallman, S. “Ethnicity research in Britain”, _Current Anthropology_ , v. 18, n. 3, 1977, pp. 531–532. (from Wiki) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/63 "2023-11-08T14:55:54Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > Wasn’t he the editor of _Ethnic Groups and Boundaries_? Yes. The essay is his introduction chapter to that work. > [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > However, I think _ethnicity/ethnic_ is rapidly losing its usefulness I still greatly prefer it to the common alternatives, race or nation. Not sure which of those is worse, actually. At least on this board, the “polite” racists of yore didn’t really use the term much, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/64 "2023-11-09T00:57:11Z")
I have no real clue, but a few months ago I asserted that “ethnicity” = genes. And got a lot of pushback from possibly more expert folks who said “No; ethnicity is just culture, not genes”. See here and the few subsequent posts for the back-and-forth. > [@If parliament effectively runs the UK.....what governing body runs England, Scotland etc](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/if-parliament-effectively-runs-the-uk-what-governing-body-runs-england-scotland-etc/985527/40): > > IANA expert, but that is a radically different way of defining that term from what I’ve ever understood, read, or heard anyone else say. IME = “Ethnicity” is genes, “culture” is what you behave or learned or practice. So in the terminology I’ve familiar with, your exemplar kid would be 100% indelibly ethnically Polish, but could possibly be culturally English if he really assimilated far more than most and affirmatively rejected the culture of his parents. I think the most useful outcome of the dialog was learning that these terms probably mean different things in different countries / cultures. Or at least do in the popular usage; academic usage may be more fully standardized. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/65 "2023-11-09T05:10:42Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > And got a lot of pushback from possibly more expert folks who said “No; ethnicity is just culture, not genes”. Those people were also wrong. Ethnicity _can_ be any or all of a combination of culture, shared ancestry, religion, language, physical appearance, group history, etc. For instance, my ethnicity encompasses multiple different genetic populations, different languages, different religions, different cultures, highly variable physical appearance. But a shared group history where initially disparate groups were pushed together for being not Black and not White. Now it’s very much its own thing, independent of that outside force. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/66 "2023-11-09T13:47:36Z")
That seems a very well-informed, thoughtful, and enlightened approach. The folks who live in a mostly monoculture and would wish to enforce that monoculture on any outliers certainly take a less nuanced POV. And yes, I agree with you that they are wrong. But when one is listening to the noise coming out of their faces, one needs to use their definitions of their words, not your, my, or academia’s definitions. In other words, it’s idjits all the way down. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/67 "2023-11-09T14:11:34Z")
Exactly right. The entire system was based on white supremacy, any subdivision by ethnicities undermined this core concept that whites were superior and had the right and duty to rule over darker races. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2023, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/68 "2023-11-16T00:27:34Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > The answer is because America’s history is built on racism, and American-style racism IS sort of unique in the world. Most of the whole world has racism in their past or present, and America is not exceptional in this. The UK had brexit due to racism, and that was only a few years ago. Mind you, American history is no more based on racism than it is on any number of things. Capitalism, individualism, Christianity, etc etc etc. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/69 "2023-11-28T19:56:36Z")
My random opinions Colonialism was not perpetrated by “Europeans” or “Caucasians” . This evil eas committed specifically by Western Europe: britain france Spain portugal holland belgium with italy and germany joining in late. The atlantic slave trade was also western. Poles and Bulgarians arent responsible. Furthermore, the white privilege that bulgarian-americans may enjoy in the USA does not transfer any special responsibility back to Hristo back in Plovdiv. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/70 "2023-11-28T21:38:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The UK had brexit due to racism The UK did not ‘have Brexit due to racism’. There were several contributing factors, of which racism was arguably one. And per the distinction in the OP, it wasn’t racism in the American sense, since the immigration that people were objecting to was from other European countries. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/71 "2023-11-29T00:08:42Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > There were several contributing factors, of which racism was arguably one. _Clearly_ one cause- xenophobia. > **[Brexit was fueled by irrational xenophobia, not real economic grievances](https://www.vox.com/2016/6/25/12029786/brexit-uk-eu-immigration-xenophobia)** > > Vox is a general interest news site for the 21st century. Its mission: to help everyone understand our complicated world, so that we can all help shape it. In text, video and audio, our reporters explain politics, policy, world affairs, technology,... _There’s just one problem: This narrative isn’t actually true. Data shows that Britain wasn’t suffering harmful economic effects from too many new migrants._ _What Britain was suffering from too much of, however, was xenophobia — fear and hatred of immigrants. Bigotry on the basis of national origin._ _That’s not something you give into and close the borders. It’s something you fight._ ### British xenophobia is not rational > **[Opinion: Brexit unleashed a nasty tide of xenophobia, racism and bigotry in...](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-xenophobia-racism-nazi-uk-b1869927.html)** > > I was one of five million EU citizens who had lived in the UK for years and built lives, homes and families; then found ourselves having to apply for British citizenship or settled status – in some cases, in vain _When the 2016 [Brexit](https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/brexit) referendum unleashed a nasty tide of xenophobia, racism and bigotry in the UK, in a way that I had never imagined possible in the country I had adopted…_ [https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/racism-and-xenophobia-are-resurgent-in-uk-and-centre-left-is-partly-to-blame/](https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/racism-and-xenophobia-are-resurgent-in-uk-and-centre-left-is-partly-to-blame/) Now, was that the only reason? No, but it was the reason Brexit passed in the referendum. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/72 "2023-11-29T00:42:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Clearly_ one cause- xenophobia. It’s not an irrational fear to dislike mass immigration in an already crowded country, especially when the government does nothing to deal with the increased demand for housing and services. It’s not irrational or immoral to want your culture and local area to remain the same. If people want to prioritise that over the supposed economic benefits, that’s a perfectly valid decision. What’s not rational is Boris Johnsonesque ‘cakeism’, telling people they could have whatever they want without compromise. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/73 "2023-11-29T21:02:23Z")
> [@nicky](#): > > This evil eas committed specifically by Western Europe: britain france Spain portugal holland belgium with italy and germany joining in late. Tell that to the Lithuanians. Or the Greenland Inuit. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/74 "2023-11-30T14:18:37Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > And per the distinction in the OP, it wasn’t racism in the American sense, since the immigration that people were objecting to was from other European countries. Actually a lot of campaigning for Brexit, such as the infamous “breaking point” posters, very much played on fear / dislike of brown people. It was never rational, but that’s just the way it was. [https://images.app.goo.gl/Y7qztzHHtEPG9VaJ7](https://images.app.goo.gl/Y7qztzHHtEPG9VaJ7) (and yes, I know if you look closely at the poster many of the people may well be caucasian, but collectively it’s brownish people wearing scary clothes) And now, sadly, the UK is in a similar spiral where the government is very much leaning in on the racist rhetoric because they can’t campaign on their record. We’re a few years behind the US though, and the rhetoric is in dog whistles about a need to “preserve british culture”. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/75 "2023-11-30T14:26:33Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > (and yes, I know if you look closely at the poster many of the people may well be caucasian, but dark hair and eyes and brownish skin is enough to make you a scary “other”). I’d never seen that poster before your link. There might be a bunch of Caucasians in that pic, but there are no Whites. Except Farage. That was a naked an appeal to racism / culturism as can be. In US terms that’s the polar opposite of Mom & Apple Pie. In UK terms I see no pasty white plump older ladies, no teapots, no orderly queuing. I don’t even see any Polish plumbers or Russian tycoons. I just see a sea of Middle Eastern, Asian, or African Others wanting to stampede over / past brave Mr. Farage holding them back. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/76 "2023-11-30T14:40:09Z")
Yep, that was the idea. The picture was of course also cherry-picked to not show many women and children, and also was taken in Slovenia. Farage continues to defend the poster, saying that refugees were free to move from Slovenia to the UK (no actual data on that though). The saddest thing for me is the general pushing of the idea of immigrants, including refugees, just being hungry mouths. e.g. They get blamed for long NHS waiting lists. The reality is that many of them do the jobs that Brits can’t or won’t, including a large proportion of NHS staff. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/77 "2023-12-01T13:43:33Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Actually a lot of campaigning for Brexit, such as the infamous “breaking point” posters, very much played on fear / dislike of brown people. It was never rational, but that’s just the way it was. I had forgotten about that poster. Very likely that the refugee crisis in Europe contributed to Brexit: Merkel’s action showed that one country could unilaterally choose to break the rules, and the others could do nothing to stop them, despite suffering some of the consequences. And the sexual assault gangs in Cologne certainly reduced my enthusiasm for taking in asylum seekers, especially large numbers of young men from countries with infamously misogynistic cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/78 "2023-12-01T14:21:27Z")
I’m very much in favor of accepting asylum seekers but Germany probably took too many in one go. It’s not easy, but Britain’s approach of not processing claims, not having safe routes and relying on hotels and other expensive temporary accommodation to house asylum seekers certainly shows how _not_ to do it. And I honestly think it’s deliberate: asylum seekers have been a talking point for at least as long as I can remember, it has to remain a problem to bring out their core vote. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2023, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/79 "2023-12-01T20:51:28Z")
Our current government is basically a cautionary example of how not to do things. And it isn’t helping them at all; they’re on track for a massacre at the next election. It’s hardly a vote winner to talk about lowering immigration when your party is responsible for raising it to the highest level in history. Pretty hard to blame anyone else when you’ve been in power for 13 straight years. One of the reasons I voted Remain is that however corrupt and incompetent the EU, there was zero chance UK politicians were going to rise to the occasion and do a better job. And so far my judgement has been amply confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662/80 "2023-12-26T18:03:47Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > It’s not irrational or immoral to want your culture and local area to remain the same. I kinda tend to think it is, actually. Cultures change, trying to pretend that you can maintain them in amber is irrational. Trying to keep people out specifically because you believe they will cause change is arguably immoral. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-racial-grouping-of-diverse-ethnicities-with-different-backgrounds-still-considered-acceptable/991662.md?page=5)