# Why is so much political debate in the US seemingly based on pure BS? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415 "2010-01-02T17:39:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/101 "2010-01-05T23:02:47Z")
That’s not necesarily true, they have their own kookie issues. The NHS recognizes homeopathy as a legitimate treatment (it’s big in Europe) and is actually pushing to have more people treated with it - why? Well, because it’s cheap. If you can get some idiot to go home with $5 worth of empty pills instead of an expensive surgery he needs, that’s a way to cut some costs. And it may not be as sinister and cynical as I made it sound - legislators and administrators can be guillable idiots who actually believe in it and decide they know better than medical science what to dictate. So legislator time is spent on issues like that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/102 "2010-01-06T03:28:18Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > Wow. If the statistics in the [wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_turnout) regarding this are to be believed, then colour me surprised. I’ve been under the impression that the majority of Americans are really into going out and voting, but only 54%? No, that’s only 54% of those- _who by age group alone_- could possible vote. "_Much of the above analysis is predicated on voter turnout as measured as a percentage of the voting-age population…n 1972, noncitizens and ineligible felons (depending on state law) constituted about 2% of the voting-age population. By 2004, ineligible voters constituted nearly 10%. Ineligible voters are not evenly distributed across the country - 20% of California’s voting-age population is ineligible to vote"_ The only important # is what % of registered voters voted. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/103 "2010-01-06T03:30:33Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > See here’s the thing: I don’t think Conservatives are bad. George Will, I respect. I disagree with him, but I respect him. . I also respect Gov Schwarzenegger & PJ O’Rourke. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/104 "2010-01-06T04:37:27Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > See here’s the thing: I don’t think Conservatives are bad. George Will, I respect. I disagree with him, but I respect him. I’m sorry to do this, but I lost all respect for George Will when he continuously uses misleading quotes to deny AGW: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/EU_AtHkB4Ms/hqdefault.jpg "3 - Climate Change -- Anatomy of a myth") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU_AtHkB4Ms) The damming misleading quotes and reprehensible behavior of Will starts at 4:16 in that video. For the ones that can’t check the video, this quote from the comments in this article eviscerating Will and other pundits reports what the video shows: [http://climateprogress.org/2009/02/15/george-will-global-cooling-warming-debunked/](http://climateprogress.org/2009/02/15/george-will-global-cooling-warming-debunked/) > [@](#): > > Check out this column that Will penned back in 2004 — [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20998-2004Dec22.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20998-2004Dec22.html) > > Here’s George Will in 2004 (from the above column): > “Nothing is so firmly believed as that which least is known.” Which is why 30 years ago the fashionable panic was about global cooling. The New York Times (Aug. 14, 1975) reported “many signs” that “Earth may be heading for another ice age.” Science magazine (Dec. 10, 1976) warned about “extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation.” “Continued rapid cooling of the Earth” (Global Ecology, 1971) could herald “a full-blown 10,000-year ice age” (Science, March 1, 1975). > > And here’s George Will now: > In the 1970s, “a major cooling of the planet” was “widely considered inevitable” because it was “well established” that the Northern Hemisphere’s climate “has been getting cooler since about 1950″ (New York Times, May 21, 1975). Although some disputed that the “cooling trend” could result in “a return to another ice age” (the Times, Sept. 14, 1975), others anticipated “a full-blown 10,000-year ice age” involving “extensive Northern Hemisphere glaciation” (Science News, March 1, 1975, and Science magazine, Dec. 10, 1976, respectively) > > It’s been over 4 years, and Will is either too stupid or delusional to learn from his mistakes, or he assumes that his readers are. > > George Will deserves to have his n\*ts ripped off with a pair of pliers (figuratively speaking, of course). The guy is either a pathological liar or is utterly delusional (that’s an inclusive “or”, BTW). Why should anyone in the scientific community treat Will with anything other than utter contempt? Asking them to do so would be like asking Bernie Madoff’s investors not to attack Madoff’s character. The problem was, the quote “Earth may be heading for another ice age.” was not in the cited New York Times article that was actually named “Warming Trend Seen in Climate”. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/105 "2010-01-06T05:18:36Z")
I forgot to mention another related fink in that video. Senator Inhofe loves to BS. > **[What 1970s science said about global cooling](https://skepticalscience.com/What-1970s-science-said-about-global-cooling.html)** > > A persistent argument designed to discredit the field of climate science is that scientists predicted an ice age in the 1970s. So popular in fact that it ranks an impressive #7 in the most cited skeptic arguments. The logic goes that climate... > [@](#): > > Skeptical quote mining of 1970s scientific literature > > … > > A 2003 Washington Post op-ed by James Schlesinger, Climate Change: The Science Isn’t Settled, quoted a 1972 National Science Board report as follows: > > ``` > "Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end . . . leading into the next glacial age." > > ``` > > The full quote from the report is as follows: > > ``` > "Judging from the record of the past interglacial ages, the present time of high temperatures should be drawing to an end, to be followed by a long period of considerably colder temperatures leading to the next glacial age **some 20,000 years from now.** However, it is possible, or even likely, that human interference has already altered the environment so much that the climatic pattern of the near future will follow a different path. > > For instance, widespread deforestation in recent centuries, especially in Europe and North America, together with increased atmospheric opacity due to man-made dust storms and industrial wastes, should have increased the Earth’s reflectivity. At the same time increasing concentration of industrial carbon dioxide in the atmosphere should lead to a temperature increase by absorption of infrared radiation from the Earth’s surface. > > When these human factors are added to such other natural factors as volcanic eruptions, changes in solar activity, and resonances within the hydro-atmosphere, their effect can only be estimated in terms of direction, not of amount" > > ``` > > Schlesinger’s op-ed has been quoted widely including James Inhofe’s Senate testimony. The Youtube video mentioned in the last post shows Inhofe dropping the “in 20,000 years” part during the senate hearings on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/106 "2010-01-06T06:44:14Z")
One difference between US and UK political culture that I think tends to be overlooked is the law of libel. Although some of the differences are lately being worn away, I think it remains the case that US law is more forgiving of political discourse that is simply insulting. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Absolutely larger numbers result in absolutely louder volume. Proportionality isn’t everything. I suspect that part of the difference in volume is that political power in the US is more broadly diffused; there are proportionately many more offices to be fought over. Our federal system adds a separate level of regional government. Our executives and legislatures are separate. There is much less party discipline in our legislatures, which means that any legislator can defy his or her party if it is in their individual interest to do so: witness the Blue Dogs, Ben Nelson, or Olympia Snowe. Judges are often political actors in our system because of the power they wield. Some of our state judges are even elected. Are prosecutors elected in the UK? Clerks of the court? School boards? Does the UK have direct referenda (i.e., where the people vote to enact a new law)? I don’t know. (N.B. I’m not saying one system or the other is better; I’m just identifying differences.) > [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Certainly issues which convulse Americans, e.g. abortion, gun control, intelligent design, using public money to say “Happy Christmas”, don’t really have any traction here. We are nominally a Protestant country with an Established Religion, but in practice a secular country where asking a candidate’s religious views would be seen as rude and intrusive. Religion is not entirely absent from British politics. Certainly, it’s more limited, but also it arises in different ways. [Blair’s God comments anger families of Iraq casualties](http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/blairs-god-comments-anger-families-of-iraq-casualties). [Gloves are off as Ken accuses Boris of 7/7 smear on Islam](http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-mayor/article-23476727-gloves-are-off-as-ken-accuses-boris-of-77-smear-on-islam.do). > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, at least in the British situation, they can always focus public and political and governmental attention on the really important things like economic and taxation policies, without nonissues/pseudoissues like intelligent design crowding the field. I think the distance across the Atlantic can make it easy to focus only on certain highlights. By contrast, bear in mind that [sex](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,957379,00.html) [scandals](http://www.vanityfair.com/fame/features/2007/02/wolcott200702?currentPage=1) are just as common in British governments. UK politics turned explosive over fox hunting. Tony Blair was attacked over where his children went to school. The anti-vaccination scare became so widespread that there’s now a spike in measles in the UK. It was a minor political crisis when many people thought the Queen was insufficiently demonstrative in grieving for Diana. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/107 "2010-01-06T10:24:48Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Judges are often political actors in our system because of the power they wield. Some of our state judges are even elected. Are prosecutors elected in the UK? Clerks of the court? School boards? No in all cases, they’re all salaried state jobs. > [@](#): > > Does the UK have direct referenda (i.e., where the people vote to enact a new law)? I don’t know. Yes but it’s very infrequently used because getting 60m people to vote on a single issue is considered an extremely heavy handed way of resolving policy. Generally it’s considered that whoever is in power has the right to make decisions due to democratic mandate (of course this is completely untrue due to the our voting system where it’s frequently the case that majority governments are voted in by a minority of the population). This government has promised/threatened a national referendum on several issues in its time but has yet to have a single one. > [@](#): > > UK politics turned explosive over fox hunting. Tony Blair was attacked over where his children went to school. The anti-vaccination scare became so widespread that there’s now a spike in measles in the UK. It was a minor political crisis when many people thought the Queen was insufficiently demonstrative in grieving for Diana. You’re right on those issues being probably much bigger in the time they got on screen than they should have, the exception being where Blair sent his children to school as this was tied to a big contradiction in the Prime Minister’s position on selective education (i.e. he and his government were totally against it yet he was sending his children to a selective state school, seemingly very “do as I say not do as I do”). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/108 "2010-01-06T14:38:03Z")
What was the last national referendum? The Maastricht Treaty? ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/109 "2010-01-06T15:49:01Z")
The last one I know we had was on Britain remaining in the EEC back in the 70s - I don’t think there was a referendum on Maastricht. Just checked and indeed the only UK-wide referendum was in 1975. There have been local referenda since then, however (like in London where we got to vote on creating the office of mayor). ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/110 "2010-01-06T19:32:17Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > That’s not necesarily true, they have their own kookie issues. The NHS recognizes homeopathy as a legitimate treatment (it’s big in Europe) and is actually pushing to have more people treated with it - why? Well, because it’s cheap. If you can get some idiot to go home with $5 worth of empty pills instead of an expensive surgery he needs, that’s a way to cut some costs. And it may not be as sinister and cynical as I made it sound - legislators and administrators can be guillable idiots who actually believe in it and decide they know better than medical science what to dictate. So legislator time is spent on issues like that. Homeopathy is indeed funded by some PCTs, as is acupuncture. Of course no GP would refer someone who needed an operation to a homeopath, but if they want to send someone to a homeopath in stead of dosing them with mind-bending anti-despressents ( having been forbidden from issuing sugar pill placebos), that’s fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/111 "2010-01-06T19:36:12Z")
For what its worth, private insurers over here are increasingly covering alternative medicine, for much the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/112 "2010-01-06T20:33:02Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > No in all cases, they’re all salaried state jobs.4 I’m not entirely sure what a school board is, are we talking board of governors (i believe these are partly elected in some obscure manner) or Local Education Authorities (which I think are appointed by locally elected politicians)? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/113 "2010-01-06T20:47:18Z")
A school board is the equivalent of a local education authority. They are generally created on a county-by-county basis; US counties tend to be less populated than British (or at least English) ones, since the country as a whole is less crowded. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/114 "2010-01-06T21:59:42Z")
I translated school board to mean director of education of a local authority, those people are indeed appointed by the local councillors (who are themselves elected locally). But education director is a full time professional job, part of the local government civil service, and you wouldn’t get someone who knew nothing about education doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/115 "2010-01-06T23:12:04Z")
I’m sorry for not being clear, but the confusion I created kind of answers my question. A school board over here is typically a quasi-legislature for a locality’s school system, setting policies and determining appropriations. The administrator of the school system, who actually runs it on a day-to day basis, would be called something like the Superintendent of Schools. I think that is typically an appointed position held by an education professional. Board members will usually have some expertise in education, but it’s not a requirement – like any legislators, they are free to be ignoramuses. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/116 "2010-01-07T01:59:49Z")
Actually, it’s usually a job requirement. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415/117 "2010-01-07T06:59:08Z")
The inheritance tax issue is another debate full of such complete bullshit it’s hard to know where to start. The vast majority of estates are not taxed; when they are taxed it is only the portion over $3.5M that is taxed at the 46% rate – not the entire estate; it is not a double tax and in many cases, because of the $3.5M exemption, capital gains are not taxed at all; and the transfer of the estate resets the “basis” of the assets so the beneficiaries of the estate are getting a net benefit. The conservatives have mucked the debate up so badly that even my ultra-liberal sister was getting worked up about the potential taxes on my mother’s estate that is worth less than $1M. Oh, and the above is not even relevant for 2010 because there is no estate tax in effect at all currently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-so-much-political-debate-in-the-us-seemingly-based-on-pure-bs/523415.md?page=5)