Why is solar power so f*cked up?

That’s what I’d like to find out. I suspect the price the market is willing to pay is somehow what’s keeping the price up, and competition among manufacturers isn’t working, though I don’t know why. Maybe it’s the installers who know that 20-40, and I’ve read even 50 cents/kilowatt-hour is what the market will bear and there just isn’t enough competition yet?

I was trying to dig up what the cost of solar was per kilowatt hour back around 1980 but I couldn’t find anything. What I did dig up was this report by the Energy Information Administration, the independent statistical and analytical agency within the Department of Energy. From the report this:

So by 1992 Luz was able to cut the price of solar energy from 25 cents to less than 8 cents per kilowatt hour.

Now I realize that report is talking about a SEGS, but still. I’m curious if Luz has somehow stayed in business what the price per kilowatt hour would be today compared to the 10 cents/kilowatt hour conventional utilities sell their power for.

Anyway, back upthread friedo states:

So how can a typical home installation still cost $30K, cost anywhere from 20-50 cents per kilowatt hour and take 10, 15, or 20 or more years to pay for itself? How can this be when the cost has decreased by an order of magnitude?

I took a solar power course in undergraduate school. We sized the heating load on a house, calculated the loan to buy heating panels and saw if the owner would make money; if his loan payment was less than the heating cost he saved.
I got Fargo, North Dakota. 22F the average heating temperature. :smack: Sized to the usual load, half I believe, and he lost money. Doubled the load and he lost money out the kazoo. Calculated for half the load, and the owner would have made money. Space heating would have made money even when I took the course in 1985.

The same place we put all the radioactive stuff from coal power plants… in regular trash. That would cut out about 99% of the “nuclear waste” we have to deal with.

As for the waste that is a legitimate radiological concern… dump it in a subduction zone.

Beyond availability of pitchblende ore, uranium requires processing and enrichment to a 12-20% [sup]235[/sup]U level for commerical pressurized and boiling water reactors typically used for power generation in the United States. Enrichment is an expensive time-consuming, and hazardous process which produces a great deal of toxic and corrosive side products (gaseous uranium hexafluoride, for one) which are not easily remediated or disposed of. Most existing commerical uranium enrichment systems in the US are based on the costly gas diffusion process, which is labor intensive and demands a lot of energy. Newer facilities are based on other methods–primarily the gas centerfuge method that is used almost universally around the world–but there’s an obvious (and pragmatically reasonable) reluctance by people to host one in their neighborhood, and so the ability of the US to ramp up domestic production of enriched fuel is very limited. The nuclear enrichment industry was deregulated in the early 'Nineties, and so lacking an economic initative there is little reason for companies to speculatively invest in increasing production infrastructure.

Reprocessing highly enriched weapons-grade material into fuel-grade material (see Megatons to Megawatts program) has similar hazards, and is of questionable economic advantage, though it does have the virtue of reducing the availability of weapons grade materials and the resultant damper on the production of improvised nuclear munitions by parties otherwise unable to produce enriched material. On a somewhat more upbeat note, the ability of the United States to produce useful quantities of weapons-grade nuclear material is essentially nil, meaning that the U.S. nuclear stockpile will continue to dwindle. This is obviously good in terms of reducing the likelyhood of a nuclear exchange (unless somebody gets itchy and decides to “use 'em before we lose 'em,”) but not so good in terms of maintaining strategic parity with existing or emergent nuclear powers, should that philosophy remain a goal in United States strategic planning. Another detrimental side effect of this is tritium production; commercial reactors are not configured to generate or seperate useful amounts of tritium. The United States has exactly one facility (the Tritium Extraction Facility at the Savannah River site) that is capable of tritium extraction, and relatively few sources of high quality tritium suitable for extraction.

Nuclear fission power should be considered at best a stopgap, albeit likely a necessary one, between truly viable and less waste producing methods of energy generation. The technical aspects of handling waste are managable (assuming good controls, monitoring, and training, all of which are pretty questionable when it comes to large organizations) but it will remain a political hot button regardless of the necessity. Transporting the waste across country and dumping it in a hole in the ground, however allegedy geologically stable, is not, IMHO, a wise move, particularly when we may someday need this “waste” if we elect or are forced to perform reprocessing and breeding.

Solar power is problematic because of a combination of factors; despite the cited almost order of magnitude costs in manufacturing, improvements in the efficiency of photovoltaic solar have been unimpressive and underrun predictions. The cost is still out of line with conventional energy production. There is little incentive to implement it on an individual basis–even after subsidies the balance works out in favor of getting energy off the grid for most people–and systems are typically pretty ad hoc rather than being well-integrated into home construction, resulting in additional maintanence. Commercial-scale solar has had some moderate successes, being relatively competitive but requiring a large footprint and only applicable to certain regions. (A solar facility in Washington state, for instance, would be an ill-advised move, though one would think that power utilities in Arizona could cover a portion of their barren landscapes without offending more then the lunatic fringe.) There’s not a lot of large-scale research going into solar, either, which limits the “critical mass” of brainpower on the problem that leads to revolutionary improvements. Passive solar is, dollars per effective watt, probably a better performer, but requires unconventional construction techniques and/or additional labor. And it seems unlikely that solar power will ever be sustainable–that is, produce enough energy to replace the bulk of fossil fuel methods–regardless of how renewable it is; certainly not the current state of the art.

I like solar–it’s clean, quiet, and uses all that waste energy that the Sun so carelessly blasts out–but it’s not going to be the salvation of humanity, at least not in the current form.

I always love simple answers to complex problems. Subduction zones are some of the deepest areas in the ocean that we can barely reach with advanced robotic probes. The cost of delivering waste to subduction zones is probably grossly prohibitive. It also deprives us of what could be a valuable resource should we decide to go the route of reprocessing.
Stranger

It actually hadn’t occurred to me that some people might consider spent fuel as “nuclear waste”. I was thinking more along the lines of activated structural material and highly contaminated equipment with no further useful purpose. Pump bearings, support skirts, stuff like that.

Also, a round-trip affair with a tethered robotic probe has a number of cost concerns that aren’t applicable to what is essentially an undersea kinetic bombing with a target the size of Nebraska.

Difficult recovery is a plus if we’re dumping fuel.

So…this was a whoosh, right?

I’m not Una, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :wink:

Seriously though, I don’t think the solar industry is ever headed towards 10 cents/KWH. I did run across this somewhat optimistic article claiming that by 2010 solar electricity could cost 13 cents/kWh in California, which depending on the month, is what conventional electricity costs now in California.

But the article also admits:

It appears to me the solar industry’s intention is not to try and match the magic 10 cents/kWh, but rather load up on profits until the price of conventional electricity eventually increases to their magic 40 cents/kWh.

Fuckers. Energy isn’t like iPods or PS3’s where you can charge whatever you think the market will let you get away with so you can maximize your profits like a good red-blooded American businessman should. Isn’t energy a national security issue?

Are you being sarcastic? The price of anything is determined by both demand and supply. Why should solar panel manufacturers be required to forgo profits?

They do it with heating oil. I certainly agree that it shouldn’t be, but nonetheless it is done.

Have you ever heard of the California electricity crisis? Supply and demand by hairy butt. We’re talking about energy, not Nintendos. Yet we treat solar like a luxury item no one has any particular right, or need to have. Maybe we should re-think that.

Because not all installations are created equal. Today’s solar panels are more efficient that ones from 20 or 30 years ago. So, the real number is cost per watt. According to a nifty chart on this page, PV prices have fallen from roughly $50 per watt in 1976 to $5 per watt in 1994 as demand has increased dramatically. I don’t have numbers for the last ten years but you can bet that prices are even cheaper than that today.

Solar systems are getting more powerful all the time. Just not as quickly as we would like. I blame the lazy scientists. :slight_smile:

Sure it is; in a very real sense, energy and information are the fundamental commodies of exchange; other commodities like pork bellies, FCOJ, gold, and currencies are just proxies. Now, you can make the argument that unfettered laissez faire markets unfairly discriminated, and that greedy makers and distributors (and frankly, who isn’t?) can choke the market to maximize their profits with utter disregard for the health and well-being of the public, but energy is just a product, and completely dissociating it from market forces is probably a bad idea for both the producers and ultimately the consumers.

Stranger

Looking deeper in that site, and performing some extrapolations, expected prices per watt panel would be about $1 in 2006. That must be wholesale substrate only, not a full system with regulators, batteries, inverters and whatever.

So I did some crude calculations. Yeah, yeah, I know, these are crude calculations, but the more you refine them, the sillier it gets to estimate, so don’t complain, just listen.

It looks like a package residential system is selling today for about ten times the cost of the solar panel, i.e., a 5KW system is $50,000. For this to be affordable and to compete with the grid, I estimate that the substrate cost needs to come down by a factor of 10, along with the infrastructure, if that is what is inflating the cost. At the rate of panel cost decrease, that should be about 2025-2035.

There. That’s my estimate. Not fast enough for me. Of course, if power generation cost using other methods (gas, oil) increases a lot, solar might be more competitive sooner than 2025 even if it didn’t meet my projected price reduction curve.

Next week’s (Apr 24 here-check you local listings) Nova will be on solar power

Brian

As long as we’re discussing solar power in general: “New 3D Solar Power Design Increases Efficiency”

I’ve looked into solar, and part of the problem is that the system is complicated to set up and maintain. To use the system efficiently, you have to act as your own engineer.

We’ve found it far more effective to attack the low-hanging fruit around the house: lots of insulation on all sides, caulking and weather-stripping, insulating water pipes, buying energy efficient appliances and making sure they’re all maintained (down to checking the furnace filters monthly). We’ve cut electrical usage further by plugging always-on appliances such as the TV and computer to power strips and making sure they’re turned off when not in use.

We also use a clothesline in the backyard, and figure it saves us a buck a washload. With an average of eight loads a week, that works out to more than $400 a year.

And yet, a walk around my neighborhood shows people leaving their storm windows up in winter, outside lights on at all hours. We’ve stopped counting how many times we see people leaving their SUVs running while they’re using the ATM, or waiting at the school. Even during the latest spikes, I didn’t notice any reduction in use. This tells me that, even at $3 a gallon gas, energy is still cheap to many people.

That’s good to know. But won’t they have to use battery backup if the show airs at night? :slight_smile:

NPR on thin film solar panels:

Rather than using vacuum depositing, tech similar to printing is used.

http://www.nanosolar.com/

Brian

I just checked my listings and all I’m getting is the ‘First Flower’ episode. I guess I don’t get PBS, so I’ll have to wait for it to replay later on one of my other stations. :mad:

The 1st flower is the episode BEFORE the solar power episode, so maybe check next week?

Brian

For what it’s worth, my sister paid around 12K for a grid tie PV system. The local utility bills at 7 or 8 cents cents/kwh and pays her 13 cents. She gets a check for about 40 bucks every month from them.

So yeah, it will be paid off in 25 years, but she has money to burn and is happy about it. So there is a real data point.