# Why is South Africa melting down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 13, 2018, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548 "2018-08-13T20:55:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/181 "2018-08-24T23:24:10Z")
> [@Epic](#): > > So you’re an anti-Semite? Shame that you’re ungrateful to the one demographic who could benefit bigly from voting conservative but still want to help minorities as many still see their situation in decades past mirrored by other groups. Or how the Jews were a massive portion among the whites who took part in the logistics of the civil rights movement. Show some gratitude and honor. Yes, the Jews are the chosen people, a concept that’s in the Holy Bible and has a lot more weight/gravitas than muh “everything’s a construct.” This is a warning for personal insults. Really I was waiting until a larger discussion played out, but I figure I can put this out there to boost my stats. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/182 "2018-08-24T23:50:20Z")
> [@Epic](#): > > And the Slavic volunteers/collaborators the Germans got cancels out any racial motivations. Yeahhhh…it really doesn’t. _Lebensraum_ was a real thing, as was the concept of Slavic _Untermenschen_. Such tolerance that was extended to useful allies like the Croats and Bulgarians was based on the notion that they had a minimal admixture of Germanic or Turkic blood - still inferior, but not extermination worthy. Now as it happens my European relatives were mostly wiped out by Ustaše rather than Nazis( Chetniks might have gotten a few as well, due to politics rather than ethnic animus ). But without the latter you wouldn’t have had the former, in practicality if not entirely in ideology. And there was no Ustaše in Poland, Ukraine or elsewhere in Eastern Europe. ETA: And this is _really_ off-topic. I shouldn’t let myself get baited into this nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/183 "2018-08-25T00:43:56Z")
Going back to the origin of the thread, and in view of Trump having decided, as usual apparently out of nowhere, to chime in on the subject, it would seem the land redistribution idea that is being floated has hit the chattersphere lately as the latest example of a long-recurring line among RW commentators that “South Africa is in meltdown” and that “any day now the ANC will show its true communist (or merely racist-revengeist) colors”. Notice the title is not a question of whether the RSA is in a meltdown, but it assumes the meltdown and asks for the causes. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/184 "2018-08-25T01:06:25Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > …it would seem the land redistribution idea that is being floated has hit the chattersphere lately as the latest example of a long-recurring line among RW commentators that “South Africa is in meltdown” and that “any day now the ANC will show its true communist (or merely racist-revengeist) colors”. Notice the title is not a question of whether the RSA is in a meltdown, but it assumes the meltdown and asks for the causes. To be fair to **XT** , he may have assumed facts not in evidence based on what he heard but I don’t think he is in anyway a RW commentator himself. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/185 "2018-08-25T01:17:51Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > To be fair to **XT** , he may have assumed facts not in evidence based on what he heard but I don’t think he is in anyway a RW commentator himself. Oh, certainly I agree with you on that – the chatter is so loud he would have easily picked it up and felt a need to ask more about it. Sorry if it seemed the other way, XT. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/186 "2018-08-25T07:35:02Z")
🌈 Back on topic. The latest [South Africa Economic Update](http://pubdocs.worldbank.org/en/798731523331698204/South-Africa-Economic-Update-April-2018.pdf) [PDF] from the **World Bank** (April 2018) says in its executive summary: (My Underlining) > [@](#): > > South Africa’s economic outlook has improved. A rise in confidence in early 2018 and the recent upward revision of national accounts for the period 2015 to 2017 suggest that the country is recovering from a difficult 2015 and 2016, which marked the end of the super-commodity cycle and severe drought. Gross domestic product (GDP) growth is projected to gather pace, increasing from 1.3 percent in 2017 to 1.4 percent in 2018, 1.8 percent in 2019, and 1.9 percent in 2020. This in turn would contribute to a broader rebound among commodity exporters, emerging markets and developing economies, and overall global growth. Although it provides little space for fiscal stimulus, the 2018 Budget Review’s reaffirmation of the government’s commitment to debt stabilization objectives is expected to generate more private investment. > > But South Africa remains constrained by its low growth potential. Slow private investment growth and weak integration into global value chains prevent the country from reaping the new economic opportunities emerging around the globe, and from catching up with living standards in peer economies. South Africa needs to build on its comparative advantages, that of an industrial skilled economy, to develop new domestic and international markets through higher productivity and innovation. At this condition will South Africa reduce its high dependency on commodity price movements, which do not look favorable for the country in the medium term. … > > … A silver lining in this very challenging social, political and economic environment is the evolving nature of inequality in South Africa, on which policy interventions could further build. Previously, inequality was largely determined by race and geographical origin (reflecting the country’s legacy of exclusion). While race remains a central determinant of inequality, income inequality is now increasingly being determined by jobs status: employed versus unemployed, skilled versus unskilled. … > > … World Bank poverty projections indicate that progress in access to education since democracy is paying off: by 2030, inequality should be back down to its 1994 level, and South Africa should count 8.3 million poor people (at $1.90 a day), down from almost 10.5 million in 2017. But the number of poor people could be brought down further, to 4 million by 2030, through selected policy interventions. They include, in the short term, continuing to address corruption, getting free higher education right, restoring policy certainty in mining, improving the competitiveness of strategic state-owned enterprises, further exposing South Africa’s large conglomerates to foreign competition, and facilitating skilled immigration. … > > … Constructing this new South Africa will take time, and managing expectations will remain a challenge in a country where strong political rights combine with high inequality to demand rapid transformation. In this regard, **continued efforts to effectively redistribute wealth to the poorest while protecting economic growth will need to complement the reforms discussed above** to create skilled jobs for the poor. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/187 "2018-08-25T11:22:30Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Going back to the origin of the thread, and in view of Trump having decided, as usual apparently out of nowhere, to chime in on the subject, it would seem the land redistribution idea that is being floated has hit the chattersphere lately as the latest example of a long-recurring line among RW commentators that “South Africa is in meltdown” and that “any day now the ANC will show its true communist (or merely racist-revengeist) colors”. Notice the title is not a question of whether the RSA is in a meltdown, but it assumes the meltdown and asks for the causes. Politifact points at the reasons why Trump and Fox news are wrong: > **[Trump tweets incorrect on S.A. land seizures, farmers](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/aug/24/donald-trump/trump-tweets-incorrect-south-african-land-seizures/)** > > Fox News host Tucker Carlson and President Donald Trump are among a group of U.S. conservatives raising alarm bells abou > [@](#): > > Our ruling > > Trump tweeted that the “South African government is seizing land from white farmers” and that there has been a “large scale killing of farmers” in the country. > > The government of South Africa is pursuing reparations more aggressively. When black communities file a claim for stolen land, the government has been offering fair market value to encourage white owners to sell. Now, the government is considering taking land without compensating current owners. > > Only land which had been unfairly taken from black communities through discriminatory laws is considered for redistribution. > > What’s more wrong in Trump’s observation is that South African farmers are not being killed systematically due to their race or profession. There is not enough data to say whether the rate of farmer deaths has increased significantly, and nothing tying that directly to government reparations initiatives. > > We rate this statement Mostly False. I do agree with the opinion of editorials at the Washington Post, Trump and Fox news are playing the hate card to distract from the horrible news Trump and Republicans are geting. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/188 "2018-08-25T16:53:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If the forced expropriation of land and property is the evil we are talking about, pretty much every Communist revolution can be added to the list. And the 2 million refugees flooding out of Venezuela might have something to say about the destructive toll of ‘Democratic Socialism’. “Democratic Socialism”? They call it Bolivarianism, Bolivar himself would probably choke on his drink (even though he certainly did have a wide populist vein and wasn’t exactly the best of managers), and it’s to Democratic Socialism what Trumpism is to the GOP of Lincoln. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/189 "2018-08-25T21:19:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If the forced expropriation of land and property is the evil we are talking about, pretty much every Communist revolution can be added to the list. and every Western imperial “capitalist” colonial regime… funny how that is skipped over in this strange discourse ripped out of the year 1983. > [@](#): > > And given that the African National Congress is both racist and Marxist, I expect nothing less than a humanitarian disaster the ANC ‘racist and marxist’? They are doing a strange job of the Marxist in their years in power since 1994. They surely have some marxist asshole sub-parties as components of the overall coalition but ANC marxist… funny. But it can be supposed that this is like the deeply informed predictions and previsions you made about the wonders of American libertarianist approach for the Iraq that would happen. Very funny calling the ANC a black nationalist Marxist movement… it seems the 1980s era Apartheid supporting with some denaibility years of the Americans are asking for their abusive assertions back. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/190 "2018-08-26T19:36:35Z")
While South Africa isn’t exactly an economic powerhouse, reports of its meltdown seem premature. Here’s the Economist’s take as of Nov 20, 2017, as published in _The World in 2018_: [INDENT] The tenure of the president, Jacob Zuma, faced a test at the end of 2017 with the ruling African National Congress (ANC) due to choose a new leader, in effect a battle between backers and critics of a discredited presidency. Failure to secure victory for his preferred candidate could sink Mr Zuma, though the ANC will hold on to power until elections scheduled for 2019. A credit-rating downgrade will weigh on investor sentiment.[/INDENT] From an investor perspective, that’s not great but not at all unusual. ## Here are their forecasts for 2018: GDP growth: 1.8% (Mediocre) GDP per head: $5,590 (PPP: $13,780) [PPP takes into account changes in exchange rates. South Africa is a middle income country.] Inflation 5.4% Budget balance -4.0 (So the budget deficit is 4% of GDP, which is a little high outside of recession). For more recent information, the ishares MSCI South Africa ETF has returned 4.18% in US dollars from Jun 30, 2017 to June 30, 2018. 3 year annualized return -1.50% 5 year annualized return 2.51% 10 year 3.2% > **[iShares MSCI South Africa ETF | EZA](https://www.ishares.com/us/products/239680/ishares-msci-south-africa-etf)** > > The iShares MSCI South Africa ETF seeks to track the investment results of an index composed of South African equities. Big picture: this isn’t a meltdown. There’s plenty to discuss about the ANC’s management of South Africa’s economy… just like any other country. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/191 "2018-08-26T19:52:18Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Here’s the Economist’s take as of Nov 20, 2017, as published in _The World in 2018_: That’s a bit out of date. It was written before Cyril Ramaphosa became president, which is a very positive development. See the more recent and comprehensive World Bank report I posted above. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2018, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/192 "2018-08-26T20:30:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > While South Africa isn’t exactly an economic powerhouse What, exactly, constitutes an economic powerhouse? For where it is, and its history, South Africa actually punches above its weight economically, I’d say. Second-biggest African economy, only African G20 country, full member of BRICS… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/193 "2018-08-27T07:21:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not true. They would have had their choice of lots of legitimately-obtained land. > > Are you under the impression that Black people were somehow incapable of entering into \*legitimate \*property deals with White people?Doesn’t render the expectations moral. > I see your slippery slope, and I refuse to set a foot on it. “Back to the start of Apartheid legislation” is a perfectly fine bright line to draw in South Africa. So some land conquest and displacement is legitimate and some is not? On what basis is that distinction to be made as a general rule? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/194 "2018-08-27T08:01:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So some land conquest and displacement is legitimate and some is not? On what basis is that distinction to be made as a general rule? It’s not that some land conquest is legitimate and some is not, but that you have to draw a line somewhere. You have to make a decision that it’s not practical to consider anything earlier than such-and-such. Otherwise you will end up going back to the dawn of recorded human history. It’s similar to a statute of limitations for crimes. There can be no general rule. It will vary from country to country. In South Africa, there seems to be a consensus that the start of apartheid is the line we should draw. And the land seizures of the 1960s and 1970s are the main ones in question. If you go back to the 19th century, then you are not only going to be dealing with white invasions, but with the Zulu conquests and the wrongs done by the Zulus to other indigenous nations, and that’s far too much of a mess even to think about. There are more urgent and important issues. The land seizures and expulsions under the apartheid government are the immediate priority, and nobody is thinking further back than that. This is not about abstract principles, but about living people who were personally wronged. With a few exceptions, the land in question is mostly farm land and tribal land. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/195 "2018-08-27T08:50:12Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > So some land conquest and displacement is legitimate and some is not? Err, no? By “legitimate”, I wasn’t referring to any conquest etc. I was referring to _land sales_ - as in, it’s ridiculous to say that absent Apartheid, White people would have been landless. They would just have had to buy their land from the Black owners like, well, decent people. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/196 "2018-08-27T16:23:23Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > There can be no general rule. It will vary from country to country. In South Africa, there seems to be a consensus that the start of apartheid is the line we should draw. And the land seizures of the 1960s and 1970s are the main ones in question. This may be the point some are missing. I think their may be a misapprehension among some about just how old apartheid is and when much of this land came into dispute. For the most part these are _not_ directly colonial-era grievances, but rather the result of post-WW II policy. This is still within living memory. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/197 "2018-08-27T18:50:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What, exactly, constitutes an economic powerhouse? For where it is, and its history, South Africa actually punches above its weight economically, I’d say. Second-biggest African economy, only African G20 country, full member of BRICS… I used a bad term. Look at the size or scale of South Africa and it’s pretty big. It’s not a growth tiger though: recent GDP growth doesn’t scan well. South Africa has its work cut out for it. Growth in the rest of sub-Saharan Africa (which is generally low income, rather than middle income) has been strong in many places. There is hope for synergy in the region; it would be very nice if South Africa pulled its act together. ---
**Author:** ![yendis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ed8c4c/32.png) [@yendis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yendis)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/198 "2018-08-28T12:56:48Z")
Anybody calling the ANC marxist or communist swallowed way to much Cold War koolaid. It was the Apartheid government who realised that screaming COMMUNIST! while pointing terrified fingers at their opponents got them the support of the Western world to do what ever they wanted as long as they only oppressed communists. Of course once the accusation was made the only place the ANC, and others, could go for help was the Communist Bloc but the core tenets of the ANC were not and are not Marxist. Now there is a Communist party in South Africa and they are in alliance with the ANC but they get bugger all say in any real political decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/199 "2018-08-28T14:12:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > One of the YouTubers I follow is from South Africa. While his channel isn’t about South Africa, and he’s moved away, he often will comment about how the country is melting down. I did a bit of digging and found out that crime, especially rape and murder are off the charts there, and the economy seems to be melting down as well. There are also some radical Marxist groups that are talking about seizing farms and businesses without compensation. No idea how powerful these groups actually are, but it reminds me a bit about the meltdown in Zimbabwe. > > So, thought I’d see what 'dopers think. Why is South Africa in such straights today? What happened to put it where it is? Where is it headed? I assume that much of this has to do with past racial issues and current racial tensions that remain unresolved, but I want to see what all is happening and why. If Zimbabwe didn’t exist, I swear American commentators would have to make it up. I’ve disagreed with **MrDibble** a lot in the past here, but I think he’s more or less right here. At least as regards whether the land reform is a good thing or a bad thing (I know very little about South African history or domestic affairs so I’ll defer to him on the historical background). Do you think Zimbabwe is the only country ever to expropriate farmland without compensation? Do you think it’s even the only country _in Africa_ to do so? Land reform, under capitalist lines, socialist lines and communist lines, with or without market compensation, has been done all over the world. Sometimes it works out miserably, sometimes the results are so-so, sometimes the results are quite good. I’m more familiar here with the European context here than with South Africa, but, for example, the communist states of Eastern Europe experienced really big and really interesting variation in how well their agricultural sector performed after it was seized from private owners. (We can do this sort of comparison because most of them kept a private farm sector around, of varying sizes). The Soviet Union which most of us are familiar with, experience results that were disastrous at worse (three famines), and mediocre at best, with state farms massively underperforming private plots. In Hungary, Czechoslovakia and East Germany however that wasn’t the case, and state farms performed comparably to private ones. (In Poland the case appears to be more mixed). Land reform has also been done all over Latin America, in Africa, and in Asia, and in most cases, as far as I can tell, didn’t lead to a collapse of agricultural production. (Even outside Cuba: Peru, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil, lots of other countries in the region did sweeping non-capitalist land reform at various points in the 20th century, and none of them experienced a ‘Venezuela’). In Zimbabwe it did, but in many other countries, as far as I can tell, it didn’t much affect agricultural production one way or the other. This guy is one of the higher-profile African Marxist leaders, and food production following his nationalization efforts seem to have grown at about the same rate it did in the years before. > **[Thomas Sankara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara)** > > Thomas Isidore Noël Sankara (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}French pronunciation: \[tɔmɑ izidɔʁ nɔɛl sɑ̃kaʁa\]; 21 December 1949 – 15 October 1987) was a Burkinabè military officer, Marxist revolutionary and Pan-Africanist who served as President of Burkina Faso from his coup in 1983 to his assassination in 1987. He is viewed by su... South Africa obviously isn’t really comparable to either Hungary or Burkina Faso, but then again, it’s not really comparable to Zimbabwe either. It’s an unusual country- one of the few middle income African countries and probably the only really industrialized ones- which makes it hard to predict how the results of this land reform will turn out. I’d guess though that it will turn out to depend on the specific leaders, policies, and methods involved. Zimbabwe was unlucky enough to have Robert Mugabe at the helm, but there’s nothing _inevitable_ about their experience that tells us that land reform without market compensation is always a bad idea. (Incidentally, farmers in South Africa are being compensated. Just not to the level they’d like). The justice of the situation as opposed to the economics is a different issue, and I can very shortly say I’m entirely unsympathetic to South African whites here. **MrDibble** has dealt with some of the relevant history, but I’ll add that even if things like the Group Areas Act hadn’t happened my opinion would still be more or less the same. It was wrong for Europeans to colonize Africa, it’s wrong for any country to have a Gini index of 60, it’s wrong for a settler-state ethnic minority to have an average per capita income 8 times that of the indigenous population. From my perspective it’s also wrong to have agricultural land organized in large-scale private estates and we’d be a better world if it were owned cooperatively or collectively, but even if you don’t agree with me on that, the other points stand. I think the land expropriation is long overdue and I’ve gained more respect for SA’s new government after reading about this (and lost more respect for the US government after they decide to weigh in). Lastly, it’s a bad idea here to take the words of a youtube commentator as gospel truth, especially one who left the country. Exiles are very often not objective observers of the country that they left behind- there’s a reason that they emigrated, after all. As has been pointed out, the South African economy is probably not going into recession this year, white South Africans experience a much lower murder rate than other groups, and crime rates are going down. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2018, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548/200 "2018-08-28T14:17:06Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > and every Western imperial “capitalist” colonial regime… funny how that is skipped over in this strange discourse ripped out of the year 1983. > > the ANC ‘racist and marxist’? They are doing a strange job of the Marxist in their years in power since 1994. They surely have some marxist asshole sub-parties as components of the overall coalition but ANC marxist… funny. > > But it can be supposed that this is like the deeply informed predictions and previsions you made about the wonders of American libertarianist approach for the Iraq that would happen. > > Very funny calling the ANC a black nationalist Marxist movement… it seems the 1980s era Apartheid supporting with some denaibility years of the Americans are asking for their abusive assertions back. Yea, the ANC is definitely not Marxist, and definitely not racist (I think both of those terms are wildly overused and used in inappropriate ways, but whatever your definition, the ANC doesn’t qualify). They’re a centrist, culturally liberal, social democratic party, as best I can see. For better or worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-south-africa-melting-down/819548.md?page=11)