# Why is southeast Asia so advanced? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601 "2007-09-09T20:24:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/61 "2007-09-13T11:47:40Z")
As for what would be convincing evidence of intelligence being a meaningful concept and that it can be measured? I think that if the term “intelligence” has any relevance outside of bullshit discussions like this or extremely informal descriptions (i.e., “he’s funny, intelligent, caring…”), it’s at best colloquial shorthand for a collection of mental competencies (short term memory, long term memory, speed of recall, speech, depth perception, etc…). Proving that these abilities vary significantly among individuals would involve finding physical differences in areas of the brain dedicated to certain competencies and proving that these physical differences result in varying outcomes. Also you’d have to identify genes that dictate the ceiling of the capacity of these areas of the brain. Even after all that, deciding that one configuration of competencies (poor short term memory but extremely high long term memory) is more important than another (same as before but switched around) is ultimately a judgment call, but it’s somewhere. IQ is plain out of the window. A pen and paper assessment of “intelligence” is just stupid. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/62 "2007-09-13T13:08:45Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Proving that these abilities vary significantly among individuals would involve finding physical differences in areas of the brain dedicated to certain competencies and proving that these physical differences result in varying outcomes. [/quote] So for example, if you gave an intelligence test to 100 people and then measured some aspect of their brains – call it X – and there was a strong correllation between X and the score on the intelligence test, you would see that as evidence that intelligence is a meaningful scientific concept? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/63 "2007-09-13T13:22:26Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] As for what would be convincing evidence of intelligence being a meaningful concept and that it can be measured? I think that if the term “intelligence” has any relevance outside of bullshit discussions like this or extremely informal descriptions (i.e., “he’s funny, intelligent, caring…”), it’s at best colloquial shorthand for a collection of mental competencies (short term memory, long term memory, speed of recall, speech, depth perception, etc…). Proving that these abilities vary significantly among individuals would involve finding physical differences in areas of the brain dedicated to certain competencies and proving that these physical differences result in varying outcomes. Also you’d have to identify genes that dictate the ceiling of the capacity of these areas of the brain. Even after all that, deciding that one configuration of competencies (poor short term memory but extremely high long term memory) is more important than another (same as before but switched around) is ultimately a judgment call, but it’s somewhere. IQ is plain out of the window. A pen and paper assessment of “intelligence” is just stupid. [/QUOTE] I agree with many of your comments about intelligence(s) and the difficulties around measuring it. Moreover the social implications of measuring it are such a hotbutton that I’m not sure it’s particularly useful to do so except in a purely academic arena. Conversations around broad averages for populations seem to unavoidably degenerate to hurt feelings and name-calling. The complexities around measuring intelligence, however, is not evidence that such differences do not exist, even at the level of populations and nations. To the question in the OP: “Why is southeast Asia so advanced?” I hold that among the likely explanations is that those populations are more intelligent as a population, and that what intelligence measures are available support this. This higher “net” intelligence, as it were, is necessary (although not sufficient) for the sorts of technological innovations and penetration to occur throughout the general population on such a robust scale compared to other nations. I am disappointed, but not surprised, at the injection of the sorts of comments made by **Menum Yellum**. I nevertheless hope the underlying premise he implies–that there is no fundamental difference in national intelligence–is correct, and that I am wrong. Such a world would be as flat for Ethiopia as it is becoming for everyone else (see Monstro’s reference to Friedman’s The World is Flat, above). If that turns out not to be the case, the quarrel should be taken up with Mother Nature and not with me. I agree with you that success at “world power” is not a particularly strong indicator of national intelligence. The Great Leader here in the US is, for me, a nice example of someone who has a lot of power but is a little light in the IQ department… I have no idea what point you are trying to make in this paragraph (or how it relates to the OP): \*\*By Pizzabrat: \*\* _“Of course, such blandly practical advise (sic) from scientific findings, while much more important and beneficial, isn’t as fun as using them to masturbate your racial prejudice boner. Whenever a black person or group of black people piss you off, or you feel anxiety over the fact that your white son probably won’t make it to the NBA bam, “science says they’re stupid” and you’re sated.”_ ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/64 "2007-09-13T13:28:46Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] So for example, if you gave an intelligence test to 100 people and then measured some aspect of their brains – call it X – and there was a strong correllation between X and the score on the intelligence test, you would see that as evidence that intelligence is a meaningful scientific concept? [/QUOTE] No you [checks forum; checks age indicated by username; cuts slack] ::sigh:: No, it’d be a straightforward measurement of that aspect of the brain. The test would then be better named as the X test. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/65 "2007-09-13T13:30:47Z")
[QUOTE=Chief Pedant] I have no idea what point you are trying to make in this paragraph (or how it relates to the OP)] [/QUOTE] Yeah, well I think you’re being willfully obtuse, so, what do you want me to tell you? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/66 "2007-09-13T13:31:41Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] No you [checks forum; checks age indicated by username; cuts slack] ::sigh:: No, it’d be a straightforward measurement of that aspect of the brain. The test would then be better named as the X test. [/QUOTE] I don’t understand. Is there any experiment one could do to test whether intelligence is a meaningful concept and can be measured? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/67 "2007-09-13T14:29:35Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Yeah, well I think you’re being willfully obtuse, so, what do you want me to tell you? [/QUOTE] **By CP** , (in answer to the OP question): _“To the question in the OP: “Why is southeast Asia so advanced?” I hold that among the likely explanations is that those populations are more intelligent as a population, and that what intelligence measures are available support this.”_ I’m not sure how to reword this to make it plainer. They are more advanced because they are, on average, smarter. (Does that help?) ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/68 "2007-09-13T14:40:04Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Is there any experiment one could do to test whether intelligence is a meaningful concept and can be measured? [/QUOTE] We already know that it’s a meaningful concept since we all agree that intelligence varies among species. But what’s loaded in this discussion of intelligence is whether it varies among individual humans significantly, and whether those variations are inborn. No, an exam wouldn’t be able to tell you that (the first obstacle of varying amounts of willingness on the parts of subjects to participate will invalidate them all the time, if the purpose is truly to measure one’s mental capacity. Is a person more “intelligent” if they take a test labeled “intelligence test” more seriously than the next guy does?). Also, though laymen can comfortably agree that humans are more intelligent than dogs, any scientific explanation of why would have to be more specific, finding out exactly what the differences between dog and human brains are and how they contribute to behavioral differences. Finding out what neurologically makes humans seemingly more “intelligent” would then be the logical definition of intelligence (is it merely a combination of a greater ability to retain memory and decipher speech, and sharper visual acuity? I know that’s not it, but that’s an example). ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/69 "2007-09-13T14:44:40Z")
[QUOTE=Chief Pedant] I’m not sure how to reword this to make it plainer. They are more advanced because they are, on average, smarter. (Does that help?) [/QUOTE] I meant that you were pretending not to get what I was getting at with the following quote, so there’s no purpose in trying to explain myself. [QUOTE=pizzabrat] Of course, such blandly practical advise from scientific findings, while much more important and beneficial, isn’t as fun as using them to masturbate your racial prejudice boner. Whenever a black person or group of black people piss you off, or you feel anxiety over the fact that your white son probably won’t make it to the NBA bam, “science says they’re stupid” and you’re sated. [/QUOTE] I was saying that though the practical conclusions from IQ tests are quite obvious, the fact that they’re never discussed and instead used to justify racism is proof that people in these discussions are less interested in actually figuring out how to better society than they are in giving themselves a cheap thrill from badmouthing blacks. EDIT: As for what it had to do with the OP - nothing. The OP died with the second post that corrected him. East Asia isn’t more advanced than we are. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/70 "2007-09-13T14:47:17Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] We already know that it’s a meaningful concept since we all agree that intelligence varies among species. But what’s loaded in this discussion of intelligence is whether it varies among individual humans significantly [/quote] Is there any experiment that could be done to answer this question? > [@](#): > > , and whether those variations are inborn. I don’t think that has been discussed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/71 "2007-09-13T15:02:47Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Is there any experiment that could be done to answer this question? [/QUOTE] One experiment by itself? I don’t think so. If you’re only working in the same species, how would you come up with an objective rubric that defines what intelligence is? Take **Chief Pedant** who claims that even though Western society has and continues to accomplish more in the world, East Asians are smarter, simply because IQ tests say so. I’d disagree, since the fallacy is quite obvious to me, but who’s right? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/72 "2007-09-13T15:11:01Z")
But to answer your question, I can’t devise an acceptable test for intelligence on my own, but I do know that with current technology it’d probably be something more complicated than one experiment. I also know that “intelligence test” is much too hefty a label (if taken seriously) to be given to a pen and paper exam. ---
**Author:** ![Menem\_yellum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b77776/32.png) [@Menem\_yellum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menem_yellum)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/73 "2007-09-13T16:47:47Z")
[QUOTE=Chief Pedant] I am disappointed, but not surprised, at the injection of the sorts of comments made by **Menum Yellum**. I nevertheless hope the underlying premise he implies–that there is no fundamental difference in national intelligence–is correct, and that I am wrong. Such a world would be as flat for Ethiopia as it is becoming for everyone else (see Monstro’s reference to Friedman’s The World is Flat, above). If that turns out not to be the case, the quarrel should be taken up with Mother Nature and not with me. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: You are “disappointed” at my comments, this gives me little grief because your comments disgust me. The way you even smugly say that you HOPE you are wrong, and that I should save my complaints to “Mother Nature” sickens me too. I THINK Ethiopians are NOT retarded!!! White people didn’t invent thinking! They don’t **own** science or goddamn knowledge! We are a country that goes back 3000 years. We have a written history that goes back from just as long (way before any European country came to existence). We have survived countless invasions from Arabs, Europeans, Somalis, etc… Name any thing Music, Math, Trade, Arts, Astronomy, Science, etc… and it existed in Ethiopia too. You would rather listen to some crazy rambling of these racists then to REAL LIFE AFRICANS. But don’t take just my word for it, just talk to some Ethiopians. You will quickly find out that they are not retarded, and the country is not full of retards. Nor will you find out that other Africans are grossly retarded. If this still doesn’t convince you to drop your ignorant and racist views, then there is nothing I can do for you. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/74 "2007-09-13T16:49:03Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] One experiment by itself? I don’t think so. [/quote] Ok, how about a series of experiments? ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/75 "2007-09-13T17:08:17Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Ok, how about a series of experiments? [/QUOTE] Sure, but what do you want me to do, describe them in detail? If I could do that then I’d be the millionaire scientist with a hot-topic book and Charles Murray would be some crazy messageboard troll. Whatever it’d be it’d have to be something involving physical evidence as well as minimalizing the amount of effort and will needed on the part of the participant. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/76 "2007-09-13T17:29:57Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Sure, but what do you want me to do, describe them in detail? [/quote] Just describe the first experiment in the series, for starters. An experiment that would provide evidence (for or against) the proposition that intelligence can be measured. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/77 "2007-09-13T18:09:49Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Just describe the first experiment in the series, for starters. An experiment that would provide evidence (for or against) the proposition that intelligence can be measured. [/QUOTE] Oh, I thought I was talking about an experiment to measure intelligence. But something involving neuroimaging to map the brain and the functions of each part would be the first step. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/78 "2007-09-13T18:23:59Z")
But in essence it’s just too abstract a term, like “love” to be taken seriously at the micro level. I think that love is a meaningful term in general, but I expect scientists to be talking about things like perceived affection and amount of physical contact and other specific aspects that we might cram together and call “love”. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/79 "2007-09-13T18:36:05Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Oh, I thought I was talking about an experiment to measure intelligence. [/quote] I did too. > [@](#): > > But something involving neuroimaging to map the brain and the functions of each part would be the first step. How exactly would the experiment work? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601/80 "2007-09-13T18:37:23Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] But in essence it’s just too abstract a term, like “love” to be taken seriously at the micro level. I think that love is a meaningful term in general, but I expect scientists to be talking about things like perceived affection and amount of physical contact and other specific aspects that we might cram together and call “love”. [/QUOTE] Well, it’s common for scientists to borrow words from common parlance. For example “energy” and “force” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-southeast-asia-so-advanced/418601.md?page=5)