What evidence would make you agree that “intelligence” is a meaningful concept; that it can be measured; and that IQ is a decent measure of intelligence?
Really? Because it seems completely ridiculous to me. It’s such a bold claim, that it would need to be backed by some serious, credible evidence. Alas, it is not. Ethiopia, a country whose average IQ is supposedly 63, has a population of 76 million people. Don’t you think some scientists would have noticed the tens of million Ethiopian retards walking around? Doesn’t that seem like someone would have taken notice of this?
They just made up facts to fit their conclusions, then explain away any contradiction. For example:
Maybe it’s just me, but I find it pretty unremarkable that the study’s authors were able to manipulate the data to fit their conclusions. If they really wanted to to a rigorous study of national IQ, they would have used more reliable and complete information, and had their work peer-reviewed.
Your assertion that the chart roughly reflects the intellectual contributions the members of these countries have made on the world stage, is also terribly myopic. The United States has best art, technology, scientists, and fancy weapons by a large margin, yet we are toward the middle of the list.
It may not be unreasonable to investigate Whether IQ has some effect, but it is to make such a claim with absolutely no credible evidence. It’s an especially illogical and dangerous in today’s global economy because the people running the economy in many of those countries near the bottom of the list are often not from the country. The war in Iraq destroyed their economy, however, I doubt their national IQ was dramatically effected. The same holds true for many of the African countries near the bottom of the list who have been (in many cases) engaged in ethic conflict and war for far longer periods of time. Even now, many of these countries are more strongly affected by the “suggestions” of the IMF and World Bank than they are limited by the low collective IQ of their citizens.
This is not abstract criticism; it is repudiation based on the lack of any concrete or meaningful data. Correlation is not causation. Plus, the correlation isn’t even that strong. I challenge anyone to make a case as to why any country on that list of IQs has a stronger economy, a more meaningful input on the world stage, and a technological advantage on the US. Not happening. Japan and Hong Kong may have nice gadgets and better cars, but they can’t challenge us in any meaningful way in the above categories. Thats where their focus is, and they are good at it. There are also a ton of other reasons why they were able to accomplish the things they have as a country. Trying to attribute it to IQ is foolish.
I’ve also noticed that many of the countries with these fancy gee-whiz mobile phone networks are geographically smaller than places like the United States. It’s a lot easier to set up mobile coverage to provide service for all the populated parts of Norway than it is to do the same for all of the populated parts of Texas just because Texas is a lot more spread out, with little strings and clusters of populated areas all over the damn place.
I’ve heard that they had to move back the switch-to-digital deadline for cell phone companies in the US a couple of times because they couldn’t provide coverage for large chunks of the country currently being serviced by the older analog networks.
What would they have noticed? Having a low IQ doesn’t necessarily mean that you will have the physical or behavioral problems that most Americans associate with mental retardation.
In my general experience, one symptom of low IQ is that the person has difficulty learning to read and write. Interestingly, the illiteracy rate in Ethiopia is very high.
How would one test the claim that the average IQ in Ethiopia is 63? And what specifically would one expect to observe in such a country?
How many schools are there in Ethiopia?
I have no idea.
Here’s a search you might try:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=number+schools+ethiopia
Saying that “illiteracy” is a “symptom” of “low IQ” is like saying that my inability to read Chinese is a “symptom” of my having received a low grade on some math test in high school. Plainly silly.
If you think widespread illiteracy in any region is a result of inherent inability to learn how to read, you have a lot of counter-examples to explain – such as, say, Ethiopian babies adopted by suburban U.S. couples, or the fact that Cuba went from mostly illiterate to almost entirely literate in a few years (obviously without a wholesale replacement of the population with a new, “higher-IQ” one).
I’m not saying there aren’t genetic components to the range of an individual’s potential abilities (or, better, his/her facilities – what comes more easily to one individual than to another) – certainly there are. But I’m SURE you are leaning too heavily on the nature and not enough on the nurture in your attempts to explain “IQ”, or “intelligence” (you still haven’t told us what you think that means – and don’t ask me, I don’t really care, since I don’t see something out there that needs to be described by such a word, at least nothing that would be worth trying to measure with a number).
The difference is that just about everyone I meet has been through an educational system that tried to teach them to read and write. (I’m not sure what math test you are talking about.)
There are a lot of potential causes for widespread illiteracy. I was merely responding to brickbacon’s claim that it’s inherently ridiculous to think that the average IQ in Ethiopia is 63.
If the average IQ in Ethiopia really is 63, one would expect to see widespread illiteracy there. No?
Actually I haven’t made any comments in this thread on the “nature versus nurture” issue.
What evidence would make you agree that “intelligence” is a meaningful concept; that it can be measured; and that IQ is a decent measure of intelligence?
Ahh… I think I’m getting it. It seems that you’re using the word “IQ” to mean “number which can be derived by having people take certain tests”, and you’re okay with the notion that their performance on those tests is mostly a product of having had the opportunity to learn certain things (like, how to read).
In other words, you use “IQ” to mean something much like the United Nations’ world education indices.
Well, in that case, I agree with a lot more of what you’ve said up until now. But I caution you that MOST people, when they see the word “IQ”, take it to mean something else: a number which measures something innate. So, I stronly suggest you use a different word for what you’re talking about. Maybe start by investigating how international NGO’s like the U.N. compare average formal* education levels between countries.
(*I specify “formal”, because one definition of “education” would include, say, the hundreds of plants and their uses which children in Amazon tribes learn.)
No I’m not.
What evidence would make you agree that “intelligence” is a meaningful concept; that it can be measured; and that IQ is a decent measure of intelligence?
As an Ethiopian who has been born and brought up in the west I must tell you that these people are vile racists. Those who defend their views are defending vile racism. Period.
If you are willing to believe these outrageous claims then you are probably willing to believe that Jew have horns growing out of their heads.
If you want to talk to more Ethiopians
If you want to talk to more Africans about this racist crap, just google for more message boards. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to bust this bullshit; but I urge anyone who is looking for honest answers not to act arrogant or like a racist prick to these Ethiopians. People will just write you off as an internet racist nutbar.
BTW Happy New Year
You’re not naive just incredibly racist. So… fuck off.
you can just fuck off too
Ethiopia is home to all of those things you jerk.
If everybody in Ethiopia was dead you’d expect to see widespread illiteracy there.
ETHIOPIA IS FULL OF ZOMBIES!
Sure, and if you saw a lot of dead people in Ethiopia, it would not be inherently ridiculous to claim that there had been a war there. There might be other reasons (famine, disease, etc.).
[Moderator Warning]
Menem yellum, this kind of invective is not appropriate in General Questions, or anywhere else on this message board except the BBQ Pit. If you wish to debate the premise of these posts, which you are welcome to do, you are expected to do so civilly.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Given the turn this thread has taken, I’m moving it to Great Debates. I would request that everyone refrain from the kind of comments that would force it to be moved to the Pit.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
A very valid point but I rather think that you are omitting one of the fundamental sub structures of the racial argument .
That is that Caucasians having paler skin reflect back more of the enviriomental illumination (whether natural or artificial )and this causes them to be dazzled .
Which lets face it ,does nothing to help when looking at small circuit related components.
Chief Pedant makes a great point by pointing out that the IQs of populations correlate with their success in the world arena. Of course, it’s not the point he’s trying to make. Because while IQs have some correlation with success, they don’t seem to be exactly correlated. East Asians have higher IQs than Europeans, but it’s the Europeans who rule the world. What IQs correlate much better with are a society’s familiarity with testing, i.e., being examinated by being asked questions of which answers are already known. I’ve tried to bring this up in other threads about this, but people couldn’t quite catch on because I wasn’t direct. They couldn’t quite grasp the idea that testing could be a unique cultural attribute.
Anyway, the helpful conclusion from such a finding is that testing helps contribute to the success of an individual and society, but it isn’t the end all secret to power. Therefore if parents want to raise a successful child they have to get him used to being tested, constantly (but then, of course, ask him questions with unknown answers too, since again testing isn’t the one secret to success, and those “thinkers” we’re used to are probably why we’re more successful than East Asian countries).
Of course, such blandly practical advise from scientific findings, while much more important and beneficial, isn’t as fun as using them to masturbate your racial prejudice boner. Whenever a black person or group of black people piss you off, or you feel anxiety over the fact that your white son probably won’t make it to the NBA bam, “science says they’re stupid” and you’re sated.