Its using facts from after the important times, because the bigger event seemed more important.
But it was already done, Japan had already * IMPORTED * USA’s education culture, INCLUDING BASEBALL, …
Everything was IMPORTED of course, but not IMPOSED.
See how many american names in the following article
The education system may have been adapted from the American system (while still remaining distinctively Japanese in some regards), but when it was adapted, baseball wasn’t played on organized varsity teams in the United States and varsity baseball certainly wasn’t (and still isn’t!) considered a spectator sport on the national level. I’m arguing that Japan’s development of university and later high school baseball into a national spectator sport is a unique development and not one imported from the United States. It’s one that came about because Japanese baseball developed differently from American baseball.
Well, take something like England. they have, what, 5 or 6 different levels of soccer league play? And even those lower-tier teams probably have their big supporters who come out to the games and wear the team colors, etc.
But I almost guarantee you that people going to those games have a Premier League team geographically closer to them than most Americans are to their closest NFL team, and people playing for those lower level teams are about as likely to make it to a Premier League team as a high school football player is of making it to the NFL.
There are 33 state-run four-year universities in California alone. This doesn’t include the 112 public community colleges in California, which are two-year schools. They, also, field sports teams.
Would there be many places where the best local* sports team for many Americans happens to be the local HS?
I may be talking out of the wrong end, but I think it may be the case in a lot of the country, basically any area that’s not part of a metropolis. And for many people in metropolitan areas, going to every home match of the local pro team involves high prices and a non-negligible investment in time: many Barça fans who live in Barcelona have never set foot in Camp Nou during an actual match but go to lower-leagues matches weekly, I imagine the same happens for Lakers fans in LA only with the difference of using a school’s grounds (“school” at any level inc. college).
The Japanese knew Perry’s fleet was coming, though - the Dutch warned them.
People like to think the Japanese were wandering around being exactly like Shogun and The Seven Samurai with no idea what was going on elsewhere in the world until Perry & Co showed up and astounded them with Modern Science & Technology like guns, clocks, and steam engines, wowing them into opening their doors to the West so they too could have clocks and steam engines like the Gaijin.
The reality is that, thanks to Rangaku, the Japanese knew about all this stuff anyway, because of the Dutch trading post at Deshima in Nag
I don’t know a lot about how football is set up in England, but I do would imagine it’s less about one of the lower-level team members having any shot of getting to the Premier League as it is about it being a local community event, supported by people who know the players because they work with them, live next door to them, etc. Not quite the same thing as supporting a high school football team, IMHO.
Sorry, that should have read “because of the Dutch trading post at Deshima in Nagasaki, as well as some of the other Europeans who were allowed to visit Japan, particularly in the early 19th century.”
There are 6 Unis in Kansas and about 8 community colleges. A couple of the small ones in the rural areas even do college rodeo.
At some though, one might get an athletic scholarship, but it probably wont be the full thing with the athletic dorms you get at the Tier I schools. Probably just your classes paid for.
Out of curiosity I looked up New York city high schools and from what I can tell the schools dont have things like homecoming and the sports teams arent necessarily attached to a particular high school. They dont even seem to have a mascot like say the Tigers or Mustangs. Is that right?
Ok that might be true. But would they have a chance to travel the length and breadth of the UK playing all of the other different college teams? For example that Missouri team plays not just the other 10 teams in their conference but also from California to Florida To Texas. Sometimes teams even go to Hawaii.
Also you might read in the UK all the stats about the big debts American college kids take on but its not the end of the world always like they make it out to be. Most are able to handle their school loans and more students now are being careful about piling up too much debt.
They don’t have things like homecoming (in fact, I’m not entirely even sure what that is) and sports teams may be attached to a particular high school or may be attached to a multi-school campus that was formerly a single high school. If by mascots , you mean someone dressed as a tiger or whatever, I’ve never seen that. If you mean all the teams are called the Tigers and drawings of a tiger appear on flyers and such, that does happen
njtt writes:
> Nonsense.
>
> If by “universities” you mean institutions comparable to the British universities of
> the time (which themselves, apart from Edinburgh, were well behind the German
> universities of the time) there were none in America at all! On a rather looser,
> more inclusive definition, there were a few of what were basically seminaries, of
> which a handful (Harvard, Princeton,…) might have had decent academic
> standards, plus maybe a few agricultural and other colleges, probably mostly
> nearer the academic level of a modern community college than that of what we
> would consider to be a university now (or what Europe would have considered to
> be a university then).
Do you know the definition of the word “nonsense”? It means “completely unconnected to the truth, not even coherent, let alone accurate.” What I wrote was not nonsense. (And you’ll note that I said, “I don’t know” and “It was probably” in my discussion.) It may not have been accurate, but it’s wasn’t nonsense. I’ve just done some research, and here are 64 (slightly less than what I wrote but not ridiculously so) still currently existing universities and colleges in the U.S. which were created by 1840 (slightly later than what I wrote but not ridiculously so). I suspect that there were some colleges created during this time which no longer exist:
Harvard 1636
St. John’s 1696
William and Mary 1693
Yale 1701
Washington College (in Maryland) 1723
Princeton 1746
University of Pennsylvania 1740
Moravian 1742
University of Delaware 1743
Columbia 1754
Brown 1764
Rutgers 1766
Dartmouth 1769
Washington and Lee 1749
College of Charleston 1770
University of Pittsburgh 1770
Salem (in North Carolina) 1772
Dickinson 1773
Hampton-Sydney 1775
University of Georgia 1785
Franklin and Marshall 1787
Georgetown 1789
University of Vermont 1791
Hamilton (in New York) 1793
Williams 1793
Bowdoin 1794
University of Tennessee 1794
Union (in New York) 1795
University of North Carolina 1795
Middlebury 1800
University of South Carolina 1801
West Point 1802
Ohio University 1804
University of Maryland 1807
Miami (in Ohio) 1809
Colby 1813
University of Michigan 1817
Saint Louis University 1818
Colgate 1819
University of Cincinnati 1819
University of Virginia 1819
Indiana University 1820
Amherst 1821
Hobart and William Smith 1822
Trinity (in Connecticut) 1823
Kenyon 1824
Rensselaer 1824
Lafayette 1824
Case Western Reserve 1826
Denison 1831
New York University 1831
University of Alabama 1831
Wesleyan 1831
Haverford 1833
Oberlin 1833
Tulane 1834
Wheaton (in Massachusetts) 1834
Emory 1836
DePauw 1837
Knox 1837
Mount Holyoke 1837
Boston University 1839
University of Missouri 1839
Bethany (in West Virginia) 1840
I dispute your claim that they weren’t comparable in quality to Oxford and Cambridge. Oxford and Cambridge weren’t very good at that time either. Give me a citation for any book, article, or anything else that compares the quality of Oxford and Cambridge with the colleges in the U.S.
What schools did you look at? I took a quick look at my mom’s old HS in Brooklyn and they seem to have teams, mascots, etc.
Indeed, even if you live next door to a major league venue, taking your family to one NFL game can cost you in the thousands of dollars. It’s very much becoming a playground for the wealthy.
When I was growing in Southwest Ohio the Cincinnati Bengals (National Football League) truly sucked wind (still do) and pretty nobody in the area cared about the Cleveland Browns because they were too far away (and rivals). But Cincinnati had a powerhouse football team in Cincinnati Moeller High School and theOhio State Buckeyes (Big Ten College) to fall back on during those lean years.
The professional teams in the state of Ohio have never been true powerhouse teams yet people do support them and hope every year that this will be the one. But the Ohio State Buckeye college team is always a contender for a national title (although they often disappoint) and everyone loves to follow a winner.
What people from Europe may fail to grasp is the affect of great amount of distance there is in places like the Midwest and Texas between towns and how sometime the local team is the only one you get to see on a regular basis, so it becomes a focal point of local pride. Sure people can go to the city and see a pro game, but when the team isn't winning most people will not bother and just follow them on TV.
That said, I’d say that a many people don’t care about sports in general other than to comment on it like the weather. But the ones who do follow sports are very vocal about their support and interest in “the game”. Whether it be on the national or local level.
Good discussion, so many thoughts. The future may hold increasing challenges to the marriage of schools and sports.
In basketball and baseball, travel teams seem to be slowly encroaching on high schools’ best athletes. I see a real conflict brewing in basketball with Adam Silver’s wish to raise the minimum playing age in the NBA to 20. Does “one and done” become “two and done” or will talented young players bypass the hypocritical construct of college and find alternative training grounds?
Along these same lines, we are ripe for the rise of the academy system, particularly if those who run them emphasize academics as well. Should a state like California ban tackle football for those under a certain age, then I could see major European soccer clubs plunking down academies adjacent to the talent rich areas of East Los Angeles and being able to make a very attractive sales pitch to the mothers of promising young athletes.
It may have to do with lack of public funding for education and high costs.
Just as another data point to add to this: South Dakota has 8 public universities (including 2 tribal colleges) and 4 public community colleges.
Basketball has a minor league system called the NBA Developmental League and before that the Continental Basketball Association. Anyone over 18 can try out and play on one of the teams for a modest income. If they are good enough they can then enter the NBA draft as soon as they turn 19. No one does this because college basketball is so popular you can become a star doing it while it is not possible to be a star doing minor league basketball and in many ways the lifestyle is much worse.
There are also plenty of minor league football leagues which are called semi-pro. The most famous of these leagues is called arena football which you can join at 18. Once you turn 20 anyone can be drafted into the NFL or show up at a training camp and try out. Eric Swann is the only notable person who did this that I can think of. If you are talented enough to play Division 1 football then there is no reason to play for semi-pro football for very little money when you could go to college and be treated like a king.
United States Soccer is just one such soccer league where the players play for them and not their high school.
My niece does upper level gymnastics and thats actually through USA Gymnastics and the US Olympics team. Tennis and golf are also all private.
Really I think HS football will be the final holdout and the move to club teams over school based. And in reality many high school teams are supported more thru booster clubs than thru school funds.