# Why is support of Israel such a huge requirement for American politicians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604 "2009-01-09T22:53:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/41 "2009-01-11T14:45:09Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It seems to me that this is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. It’s actually not quite so much a matter of opinion, as there is a significant factual component to it. Sevastopol just doesn’t like what the facts are, so he pretends it isn’t a fact and that Americans will go just bonkers if his fantasy replaced the fact. To wit: The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was, for all practical purposes, [a Nazi.](http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php) He was interested in exterminating the Jews in Europe and the Middle East quite a long time before 1948. He was funded by the Nazis in some of his violent activities in the Levant iself, and according to Eichmann’s deputy Dieter Wisliceny: “The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan. … He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chamber of Auschwitz.” In turn, the Mufti trained his nephew Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, who was next in the succession of power. You probably know him better as Yasser Arafat. Hamas, by their own proud admission, is on a religious crusade to take back “Muslim” lands and endorse the view that the Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims commit genocide against the Jews. The fact is that simply, there was a mutual alliance of Jew-killing pre-1948, and it continued on in various forms in Palestinian society to this very day. You are right that there are also many other differences, like Hamas’ Muslim theocratic leanings which the Nazis did not in fact share. Sevastopol would probably quibble over the definition of ‘core’, but it’s clear that Nazism found a receptive home in the pre-1948 Levant and genocidal Jew-killing has remained en vogue amongst its more militant members for the better part of 70 years. Sevastopol, of course, wouldn’t note that Mein Kampf is a best seller in the PA administrated territories even to this day and the Protocols have wide distribution as well. The simple reality is that Sevastopol’s argument is… shall we say in this forum, less than accurate. I can provide links to Pit material for a more frank discussion. Suffice it to say that his even when groups like Hamas show that they hold racist conspiracy theories about Jews controlling the world, he says that they’re not racist and are perfectly acceptable ‘in the context of anti-Zionism’, whatever he thinks that means exactly. When it’s pointed out that Hamas is quite capable, in their own words, of differentiating between Jews and Israelis, he claims that all references to the evil of the Jews and how they should be dealt with are really references to the Israelis. Of course, when [official PA TV says](http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP90805): " > [@](#): > > "Allah has tormented us with ‘the people most hostile to the believers’ – the Jews. ‘Thou shalt find that the people most hostile to the believers to be the Jews and the polytheists.’ Allah warned His beloved Prophet Muhammad about the Jews, who had killed their prophets, forged their Torah, and sowed corruption throughout their history. > > "With the establishment of the state of Israel, the entire Islamic nation was lost, because Israel is a cancer spreading through the body of the Islamic nation, and because the Jews are a virus resembling AIDS, from which the entire world suffers. > > "You will find that the Jews were behind all the civil strife in this world. The Jews are behind the suffering of the nations. > > "Ask Britain what it did to the Jews in the early sixth century. What did they do to the Jews? They expelled them, tortured them, and prevented them from entering Britain for more than 300 years. All this was because of what the Jews did in Britain. Ask France what it did to the Jews. They tortured them, expelled them, and burned their Talmud, because of the civil strife the Jews wanted to spark in France, in the days of Louis XIX. Ask Portugal what it did to the Jews. Ask Czarist Russia, which welcomed the Jews, who plotted to kill the Czar - so he massacred them. But don’t ask Germany what it did to the Jews. It was the Jews who provoked Nazism to wage war against the entire world, when the Jews, using the Zionist movement, got other countries to wage an economic war on Germany and to boycott German merchandise. They provoked Russia, Britain, France, and Italy. This enraged the Germans toward the Jews, leading to the events of those days, which the Jews commemorat today. > > "But they are committing worse deeds than those done to them in the Nazi war. Yes, perhaps some of them were killed and some burned, but they are inflating this in order to win over the of the media and gain the world’s sympathy. The worst crimes in history were committed against the Jews, yet these crimes are no worse than what the Jews are doing in Palestine. What was done to the Jews was a crime, but isn’t what the Jews are doing today in the land of Palestine not a crime?! > > "Look at modern history. Where has Great Britain gone? Where has Czarist Russia gone? Where has France gone - France, which almost ruled the entire world? Where is Nazi Germany, which massacred millions and ruled the world? Where did all these superpowers go? He who made them disappear will make America disappear too, God willing. He who made Russia disappear overnight is capable of making America disappear and fall, Allah willing. > > “We have ruled the world before, and by Allah, the day will come when we will rule the entire world again. The day will come when we will rule America. The day will come when we will rule Britain and the entire world – except for the Jews. The Jews will not enjoy a life of tranquility under our rule, because they are treacherous by nature, as they have been throughout history. The day will come when everything will be relived of the Jews - even the stones and trees which were harmed by them. Listen to the Prophet Muhammad, who tells you about the evil end that awaits Jews. The stones and trees will want the Muslims to finish off every Jew.” Or from [Hamas’ own charter:](http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm) > [@](#): > > Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised. > […] > Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: > > ``` > "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). > > ``` > > […] > Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. “May the cowards never sleep.” > > […] > The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews. > > […] > > For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there. > > You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it. Well… Let’s just say that Sevastopol’s silly little denials about how describing this not even as Nazism, but simply as “anti-Semitic” take on a very interesting new slant. > [@brazil84](#): > > Again, this is a matter of opinon. Like claiming that Subaru makes the best car on the market. I’d argue that the bit about being our strongest ally in the region is factual, as well. Considering that we don’t have any capable military allies in the region besides . The Saudis, for example, are capable of defending their own kingdom but even the Saudis have been hoping that Israel and/or the US will deal with Iran, for example. It’d be interesting if, instead of just his fantasy about how people will believe his fictions, riot in the streets, and then Israel will be ethnically cleansed of Israelis… if he could point out _why_ the facts should be ignored for his fictions. We also, rather obviously, do have a military alliance with Israel. That’s why we’ve developed joint weapon systems, engaged in joint military exercises and have US naval facilities in Haifa. Likewise, it should be rather obvious that Israel has a strong commitment to the US, and one that’s held since the Cold War. > [@brazil84](#): > > I would imagine that most informed Americans are vaguely aware that there have been elections, for example, in Iraq. I’m not sure what’s funniest… his fantasy that American disbelief in this claim would lead to rioting in the street, or the fact that it was perfectly accurate before US actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. IIRC his normal dodge is to claim that Turkey should be listed as a Middle East nation, and so I suppose, there should be rioting in the streets. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/42 "2009-01-11T16:56:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Does AIPAC want the US embassy to be in Jerusalem? > Is the US embassy in Jerusalem? There is a law on the books requiring the U.S. embassy to be moved to Jerusalem (subject to Presidential waiver), which passed the house 374-37 and the Senate 93-5. Both presidential candidates supported moving the embassy to Jerusalem, and President Bush has expressed his support as well. If that counts as a failure of AIPAC’s lobbying, then hell, I don’t know what success looks like. I haven’t been able to find anything in google, but I guess the reason that the embassy hasn’t been moved is that the Israelis don’t want it to be. [cite 1](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/elections/2008/07/22/aides-try-to-cast-obama-as-presidential-as-overseas-trip-shifts-to-campaign-event/) [cite 2](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/990903.html) [cite 3](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/Jerusalem_Relocation_Act.html) Can you point to another country that has a law on it’s books, and virtually every major national political figure expressing support for moving their embassy to Jerusalem? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/43 "2009-01-11T17:31:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I haven’t been able to find anything in google, but I guess the reason that the embassy hasn’t been moved is that the Israelis don’t want it to be. The embassy hasn’t been moved because neither Clinton or Bush would authorize it. They’ve suspended the move every year, and have said that they weren’t going to recognize the law as binding them to move the embassy. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/44 "2009-01-11T17:38:39Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > The embassy hasn’t been moved because neither Clinton or Bush would authorize it. They’ve suspended the move every year, and have said that they weren’t going to recognize the law as binding them to move the embassy. Right, but the question is why the won’t authorize it. Bush says: > [@](#): > > “My administration remains committed to beginning the process of moving our embassy to Jerusalem,” Bush said in a memorandum to the secretary of state dated Dec. 15. It’s clear that moving the embassy has broad support amongst political leaders in the U.S. The question is why hasn’t it happened yet, and, like I said, I’m guessing it is because Israel doesn’t want it to happen. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/45 "2009-01-11T17:57:35Z")
For anyone who doubts the fanaticism of Israel’s enemies and their determination to wipe Israel from the map I recommend [Palestinian Media Watch](http://www.pmw.org.il/), a daily-updated translation of articles, school texts, cartoons, etc from the Palestinian and Arab press. Julius Streicher himself would have been proud of this stuff, which reflects attitudes that permeate the whole of Arab society. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/46 "2009-01-11T18:23:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > In turn, the **Mufti** trained his **nephew** Mohammed Abdel-Raouf Arafat As Qudwa al-Hussaeini, who was next in the succession of power. You probably know him better as **Yasser Arafat**. :rolleyes: Cite? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/47 "2009-01-11T18:25:41Z")
> [@treis](#): > > There is a law on the books requiring the U.S. embassy to be moved to Jerusalem (subject to Presidential waiver), which passed the house 374-37 and the Senate 93-5. And every single president has suspended that move, like clockwork, every single time it came up. > [@treis](#): > > Both presidential candidates supported moving the embassy to Jerusalem, and President Bush has expressed his support as well. :rolleyes: Bush has repeatedly denied the move to Jerusalem citing US national security as the reason, time and again. Obama said he’d only move the embassy to Jersualem as part of Final Status negotiations. > [@treis](#): > > I don’t know what success looks like. Agreed. . > [@treis](#): > > I haven’t been able to find anything in google, but I guess the reason that the embassy hasn’t been moved is that the Israelis don’t want it to be. Yes, I figured that would be your guess. Unfortunately, even basic google skills reveal it’s simply wrong. As soon as Bush was president, he began a long pattern of denying the move to Jersualem to, and I [quote] ([http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip\_0140.htm](http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0140.htm)): "protect the national security interests of the United States " That was his reasoning pretty much every time he renewed the postponement, including the postponement he just made a few moths ago. Clinton also did much the same thing. > [@treis](#): > > Can you point to another country that has a law on it’s books, and virtually every major national political figure expressing support for moving their embassy to Jerusalem? You mean, expressing empty support that is shown, semi-annually for more than a decade, to be mere rhetoric? Or should you, instead, point to any other nations on Earth who have to fight to get their capital city recognized and even their closest ally in the entire world won’t put their embassy there? > [@treis](#): > > like I said, I’m guessing it is because Israel doesn’t want it to happen. US leader after US leader says they won’t do it and that it would compromise national security for the US, and your answer is ‘Israel did it!’ Got any facts, at all, to support your accusation? Any? Of course, the facts clearly show that the anti-AIPAC conspiracy mongering is a bit silly, as AIPAC [has certainly](http://www.aipac.org/Publications/AIPACAnalysesIssueBriefs/Jerusalem.pdf) agitated for the embassy to be moved to Jersualem. (And doesn’t the conspiracy theory go that AIPAC is an agent of a foreign government?) Funny that its influence doesn’t extend far enough to getting the US to actually put its embassy in Jersualem. But that can’t be because they don’t have enough influence to do that, but because, really, the Israelis secretly don’t want us to put one there. [Up until at least 2006](http://www.allbusiness.com/middle-east/israel/866568-1.html), The US law wouldn’t even recognize US citizens who were born in Jerusalem as being born in Israel. But that’s probably all because Israel wants it that way. Of course. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/48 "2009-01-11T18:42:02Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Cite? Why yes, you’re right, I did indeed provide a cite in the very post you’re responding to. Can’t sneak anything past you, can I? If you want to, you could also google a bit on Arafat’s role in al Futtuwah. I’ve heard googling is pretty easy, all the kids are doing it. With just a bit of effort, you might even be able to find about Arafat’s interview in Al Sharq al Awsat, where he clearly stated “We are the mighty people. Were they able to replace our hero Hajj Amin al-Husseini?.. There were a number of attempts to get rid of Hajj Amin, whom they considered an ally of the Nazis. But even so, he lived in Cairo, and participated in the 1948 war, and I was one of his troops” ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/49 "2009-01-11T19:30:24Z")
[quote=“FinnAgain, post:47, topic:480604”] Yes, I figured that would be your guess. Unfortunately, even basic google skills reveal it’s simply wrong. As soon as Bush was president, he began a long pattern of denying the move to Jersualem to, and I > [@](#): > > ([http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip\_0140.htm](http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0140.htm)): "protect the national security interests of the United States " > That was his reasoning pretty much every time he renewed the postponement, including the postponement he just made a few moths ago. Clinton also did much the same thing. He uses that justification because that is the out the law gives him. He has repeatedly and clearly stated his desire to move the embassy to Jerusalem. The evidence points to AIPAC having gotten what it wants. Every important politician and the vast majority of Sentaors and Congressmen want the embassy in Jerusalem. You wish us to believe that the fact that the embassy is not there as evidence of the lack of AIPAC’s influence, but you have not proved your case. You wish us to presume that the reason the embassy hasn’t moved to Jerusalem is opposition by American politicians, but the evidence doesn’t support that. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Got any facts, at all, to support your accusation? > Any? It’s not up to me to provide facts for your argument. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Or should you, instead, point to any other nations on Earth who have to fight to get their capital city recognized and even their closest ally in the entire world won’t put their embassy there? If is this case, it shouldn’t be difficult for you to provide support for Israel’s desire to have embassies moved to Jerusalem. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > (And doesn’t the conspiracy theory go that AIPAC is an agent of a foreign government?) No, it doesn’t. Most people recognize that AIPAC isn’t a tool of the Israeli government. AIPAC has it’s own agenda, which may or may not coincide with the government in power in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/50 "2009-01-11T19:37:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Why yes, you’re right, I did indeed provide a cite in the very post you’re responding to. Indeed you did provide a cite, but there are also cites that dispute the relationship. Not that [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat#Birth_and_childhood) is definitive, but they claim that they were different clans and unrelated. A Zionist leaning [source](http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/PLO_RECORD/plo_record.asp) also disputes the claim, but raises a different connection: > [@](#): > > Arafat’s family history is grounded in Egypt and Gaza. There is an “Al-Qudwa Street” in Gaza where Yasser Arafat’s ancestors lived. The Al-Husseinis of Gaza are not related to the Hajj Amin Al-Husseini’s family. Arafat’s family is the Al-Qudwas. > > However, Yasser Arafat DOES have a connection to the Mufti, and this connection leads us to another Arafat-orchestrated myth – That he was deputy commander under Abd el-Kader Al-Husseini and fought in the battle for Jerusalem. To present the truth, we must see the Al-Husseini connection and Arafat’s actual participation in the 1947-1948 Palestinian-Israeli war. > > The Mufti had fled Palestine, after Britain ordered his arrest for his participation in the 1936-39 anti-British intifadha. He fled to Nazi Germany, and proceeded to recruit 30,000 Balkan Moslems for the SS. He would later agree to recruit Arabs in the Middle East to aid the Nazis in the North African campaign. This, in exchange for a pledge from Hitler that Germany would implement the extermination of the Jews in Palestine, should they successfully occupy it from Britain. > > In 1946, Hajj-Amin returned to Palestine as the result of receiving amnesty from the British Mandatory administration. At this time, a 17-year-old Yasser Arafat began a personal relationship with the Mufti. This was the result of the close relationship of Sheikh Hassan Abu-Sa`oud, the patriarch of his late mother’s family and a distant relative to Arafat, who was an advisor and confidant of the Mufti. > > Arafat first served the Mufti and his Higher Arab Committee as a courier to the surrounding Arab countries and the Arab League. His responsibilities included the collection of donations for the Arab cause. Moreover, he was Al-Husseini’s observer of pro-Palestinian activities on Egyptian campuses. > > In 1947, Arafat was placed in charge of arms procurement and shipment for the Mufti’s Irregular forces – The Holy Strugglers. > > Arafat has claimed to have had a “close relationship” to the commander of the Mufti’s Holy Strugglers, Abd el-Kader Al-Husseini (father of Feisal Husseini), and cousin to Hajj Amin. > > While the two of them often met in the Mufti’s Cairo office, that was the extent of their relationship. Totally immaterial to your point as that may be. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/51 "2009-01-11T20:24:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > there are also cites that dispute the relationship. True enough, if newcomer’s tack was a bit different, I suppose I could’ve discussed some more of the debate over Arafat’s lineage. There do seem to be numerous competing claims, _Icon of Evil: Hitler’s Mufti and the Rise of Radical Islam_ said: “Arafat’s mother was the daughter of the mufti’s first cousin.” _Yasir Arafat: a political biography_ called him a “distant relative” of the Mufti. Howard M. Sachar said in _A history of Israel_: “Arafat’s actual name was Abd al-Rahman abd al-Bauf Arafat al-Qud al-Husseini. He shortened it to obscure his kinship with the notorious Nazi and ex-Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini.”" Others claim that there was no relation… while still others claim he was no relation but that Arafat pretended he was. But yes, it doesn’t touch on the central issue in any case: Arafat learned from someone who might himself have been a Nazi, and was that man’s political successor. Ah well. > [@treis](#): > > He uses that justification because that is the out the law gives him. So, the law provides a provision to not move the embassy if moving it would be bad for national security… and it wasn’t moved because it would be bad for national security, and from that, you get ‘Israel did it!’ Good show Treis. > [@treis](#): > > He has repeatedly and clearly stated his desire to move the embassy to Jerusalem. Please apply basic critical thinking to this subject. If he really wanted to move the embassy to Jerusalem, why does he continually say he does not? Is he incapable of fulfilling his desires? It’s his choice, after all. Which is a rational conclusion, that the man whose sole choice it is really wants to but doesn’t because Israel tells him not to, or that he pays lip service to the idea but does not want to? > [@treis](#): > > The evidence points to AIPAC having gotten what it wants. I do have to admit, you’ve taken debunked talking points to a whole new low with curiously evident tenacity. AIPAC wants the embassy in Jerusalem, the embassy isn’t in Jerusalem. AIPAC wants the presidents to allow it to be moved to Jerusalem. The presidents do not move it to Jerusalem. Therefore, AIPAC has clearly gotten what it wants. :smack: > [@treis](#): > > Every important politician and the vast majority of Sentaors and Congressmen want the embassy in Jerusalem. And yet they don’t pass a new law which, say, withholds funding from causes the president supports until he authorizes the move. Israel told them not to pass a new law, right? > [@treis](#): > > You wish us to presume that the reason the embassy hasn’t moved to Jerusalem is opposition by American politicians, but the evidence doesn’t support that. Yes, that every single American president hasn’t moved it isn’t evidence of opposition, but support! They support it so much, they oppose it. Damn but conspiracy theories are weird. > [@treis](#): > > It’s not up to me to provide facts for your argument. You’re right. It’s up to you to provide evidence for yours. Let me guess, it won’t ever happen, will it? Israel is to blame for that too, right? They took away your google? > [@treis](#): > > If is this case, it shouldn’t be difficult for you to provide support for Israel’s desire to have embassies moved to Jerusalem. I think the fact that Israel made it its capital might be a clue. The fact that embassies are based in capitals except when the seat of government is in another city, that might be a clue. The fact that you still can’t provide any proof for the claim that, alone out of all the nations in the world, Israel does not want embassies in its capital might be a big honkin clue. Israel took away the clues, didn’t it? > [@treis](#): > > No, it doesn’t Survey says: [bullshit.](http://www.cnionline.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=95&Itemid=56&b965b7cce38007a4a87a25ccf79f8828=00b9bd76a7280d8ea39e0a1ce7946378) Israel did that too. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/52 "2009-01-11T21:19:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I think the fact that Israel made it its capital might be a clue. > The fact that embassies are based in capitals except when the seat of government is in another city, that might be a clue. > The fact that you still can’t provide any proof for the claim that, alone out of all the nations in the world, Israel does not want embassies in its capital might be a big honkin clue. > Israel took away the clues, didn’t it? As I said before, if it is this obvious that Israel wants the embassies in Jersualem than it should be trivial to get a cite saying “we want foreign embassies in Jerusalem”. Y’Know, find proof to back up your arguments. You’ve provided no evidence that AIPAC is unhappy with the support on this issue through the U.S. political world. You’ve provided no evidence that they attempted and failed to strong arm anyone on this issue. As I noted in a previous post, which you apparently ignored, no other country in the world has a law on their books requiring their embassy to be moved to Jerusalem, nor is there any other country where every major politician supports that move. Why is this the case? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Survey says: [bullshit.](http://www.cnionline.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=95&Itemid=56&b965b7cce38007a4a87a25ccf79f8828=00b9bd76a7280d8ea39e0a1ce7946378) > Israel did that too. I don’t see how this contradicts what I said. It is clear that AIPAC is working to further the interests of a foreign country. What is also clear is that they are not controlled by the Israeli government. They are an independent organization that is seeking to implement its own agenda. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/53 "2009-01-11T21:22:20Z")
I know this is a tangent, but since it was raised here I’d like to post just a bit more on it. It really does seem to be fascinating, but even the basic facts about Arafat are in question. Time says: [ > [@](#): > > Here’s one thing we know for sure: Yasser Arafat was a grand obfuscator—right down to the small details of his life. He sometimes said he was born in Jerusalem, sometimes in the Gaza Strip. But those were fictions meant to deflect challenges to his authenticity as a Palestinian. In fact, he was born, Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat Al Qudua Al Husseini, on Aug. 24, 1929 in Cairo, where his father, a textile merchant from Gaza, had moved the family two years before. In his early years, Arafat claimed to be a member of the prominent al-Husseini clan of Jerusalem, the family of Hajj Amin Al Husseini, then the Mufti of Palestine, but that was also a fantasy. ]([http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,781566,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,781566,00.html)) Mid East Web: [ > [@](#): > > He was born Rahman Abdel-Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini on August 4 or August 24, 1929 in Cairo and died in Paris on November 11, 2004. His father was Abdul al Qudwa (or Kidwa). His mother was Hamida Khalifa Al-Husseini, one of the many cousins of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin El Husseini. ]([Yasser Arafat](http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/yasser_arafat.htm)) Times Online: [ > [@](#): > > On his father’s side, he was a member of the prominent al-Husseini clan of Gaza, while his mother was one of the Abu Sauds of Jerusalem, counting as minor aristocracy in the old city. Contrary to another claim, he was not related to the notorious Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who advocated alliance with Nazi Germany during the Second World War and who led the Palestinian government in exile after 1948. ]([Latest news & breaking headlines | The Times and The Sunday Times](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1076424.ece)) That in addition to the earlier quotes. I will happily admit that my earlier assertion appears to be incorrect, and I will retract it. It seems that one of a few possibilities is true: -Arafat was the Mufti’s (if my calculations are right) second cousin or a first cousin twice removed… or something similar. -Arafat was not a relative, but claimed to be, referring to the Mufti as his uncle and/or referring to his as simply being a blood relation depending on who he was telling the story to, and why. -Arafat was a relative of the Mufti, but was a distant relation. Interesting. I hadn’t realized just how much confusion there was on that topic. However, the basic facts aren’t in disagreement. The Gran Mufti was, for all practical purposes, an Arab Nazi and Arafat worked for him, learned fro him, viewed his as an ideological role model and took over from him. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/54 "2009-01-11T21:47:35Z")
> [@treis](#): > > As I said before, if it is this obvious that Israel wants the embassies in Jersualem than it should be trivial to get a cite saying “we want foreign embassies in Jerusalem”. Y’Know, find proof to back up your arguments. So you’ll find proof to back up your conspiracy theory that it was Israel that stopped Clinton, Bush, and now Obama from moving the embassy? And stopped Congress from passing harsher resolutions and laws? No? I’m shocked. Shocked. I’m tired of this game, and especially your shifting the burden of proof. You expect me to prove that by making Jerusalem its capital, Israel intended for it to be treated as its capital. And by making it its seat of government, it expected it to be treated as its seat of government. Meanwhile, you use a conspiracy theory about Israel preventing US presidents from moving the embassy, and not only provide zero evidence, but demand that I refute it. The US places its embassies in the capitals, or failing that, the seats of government of foreign nations. Israel denoted Jerusalem its capital. Israel denoted Jerusalem as its seat of government Basic logic answers the question for you. Or not, as it seems. > [@treis](#): > > You’ve provided no evidence that AIPAC is unhappy with the support on this issue through the U.S. political world. Bullshit. I provided a direct cite of AIPAC’s own words saying that the US presidents should follow through and move the embassy to Jerusalem. > [@treis](#): > > I don’t see how this contradicts what I said. My bullshit meter has now redlined and exploded. You are now actually claiming you don’t understand why people saying “AIPAC is the agent of a foreign government.” is a refutation of your denial that the conspiracy theory states that “AIPAC is an agent of a foreign government.” And now you’re either ignorant of the fact that registering as an ‘agent of a foreign government’ doesn’t mean you work to further the interests of a foreign power… or simply denying it? Are you honestly participating in this debate without even knowing that “agent of a foreign government” specifically [means](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000951----000-.html): > [@](#): > > (d) For purposes of this section, the term “agent of a foreign government” means an individual who agrees to operate within the United States subject to the direction or control of a foreign government or official, except that such term does not include— > (1) a duly accredited diplomatic or consular officer of a foreign government, who is so recognized by the Department of State; > (2) any officially and publicly acknowledged and sponsored official or representative of a foreign government; > (3) any officially and publicly acknowledged and sponsored member of the staff of, or employee of, an officer, official, or representative described in paragraph (1) or (2), who is not a United States citizen; or > (4) any person engaged in a legal commercial transaction. > (e) Notwithstanding paragraph (d)(4), any person engaged in a legal commercial transaction shall be considered to be an agent of a foreign government for purposes of this section if— > (1) such person agrees to operate within the United States subject to the direction or control of a foreign government or official; and > (2) such person— > (A) is an agent of Cuba or any other country that the President determines (and so reports to the Congress) poses a threat to the national security interest of the United States for purposes of this section, unless the Attorney General, after consultation with the Secretary of State, determines and so reports to the Congress that the national security or foreign policy interests of the United States require that the provisions of this section do not apply in specific circumstances to agents of such country; or > (B) has been convicted of, or has entered a plea of nolo contendere with respect to, any offense under section 792 through 799, 831, or 2381 of this title or under section 11 of the Export Administration Act of 1979, except that the provisions of this subsection shall not apply to a person described in this clause for a period of more than five years beginning on the date of the conviction or the date of entry of the plea of nolo contendere, as the case may be. Whatever. I’m done with this farce. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/55 "2009-01-11T22:38:48Z")
For what it may be worth, I found [this article](http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/11542/edition_id/221/format/html/displaystory.html) from some regional Jewish newspaper: > [@](#): > > Clinton signs order keeping U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv > > MATTHEW DORF > Jewish Telegraphic Agency > > WASHINGTON – Four years after the U.S. Congress overwhelmingly passed a law requiring the United States to move its embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, the mission remains firmly rooted outside the Jewish state’s capital city. > > . . . > > “We’re disappointed – to put it mildly,” Howard Kohr, executive director of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, said of Clinton’s long-expected decision. > > . . . > > Israel’s outgoing government also wants to see the embassy moved. > > “Israel regrets that the transfer of the U.S. Embassy to its historic capital Jerusalem was delayed once again,” said Zalman Shoval, Israel’s ambassador to the United States. > > Asad Abdul-Rahman, executive committee member of the Palestine Liberation Organization, welcomed the decision. Of course, it’s possible that this newspaper is distorting things. It’s also possible that AIPAC is only pretending to be disappointed. Or that AIPAC made a tactical decision not to push harder on the issue. In politics, as in just about everything else, appearances can be deceiving. Not only that, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a decent amount of dissent in Israel itself over whether the embassy should be located. Nevertheless, it would appear to me that the Israel lobby, while undoubtedly quite strong, does have limits. My opinion only. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/56 "2009-01-11T22:51:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Whatever. > I’m done with this farce. _shrug_ I guess this is another instance where you are going to ignore the obvious. The bottom line is that AIPAC has gotten virtually every politician in the U.S. to support putting an embassy in Jerusalem. This is a situation entirely unique to the United States. No other major country supports taking such a step. No other major country has a law on their books requiring such a change. No other country has their politicians in lock step agreement that their embassy should be in Jerusalem. There’s no way you can count that as a failure by AIPAC. They may not have been completely successful on this issue, but they’ve gotten about as close as you can get. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/57 "2009-01-11T23:07:52Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I guess this is another instance where you are going to ignore the obvious. Naw, I’m not ignoring it, it’s just not worth creating an entirely new Pit thread to discuss it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/58 "2009-01-11T23:14:47Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The bottom line is that AIPAC has gotten virtually every politician in the U.S. to support putting an embassy in Jerusalem. I wouldn’t assume that the law in question is solely the result of AIPAC lobbying. There are a lot of evangelical Christians in the United States. Here is a quote from what appears to be a Christian web site: > [@](#): > > The ICEJ affirms that it is proud to be located in Jerusalem, to speak for the interests of multitudes of Christians in this regard from all over the world and to stand with Israel. Though not officially accredited with diplomatic status, the International Christian Embassy Jerusalem does represent the views of millions of Christians worldwide who believe their nations should place their embassies here. > > Jerusalem has been the capital of only one people – the Jewish people – and its first ‘mayor’ was King David! [http://www.icej.org/article.php?id=3451](http://www.icej.org/article.php?id=3451) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/59 "2009-01-11T23:34:07Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I wouldn’t assume that the law in question is solely the result of AIPAC lobbying. There’s also the fact that they don’t actually do anything to support it other than pay lip service to it. Congress is fully capable of putting real teeth to a resolution, they haven’t. Presidents are fully capable of implementing the '95 law. They haven’t. We’re at a point where Israel’s closest ally in the entire world won’t even provide full recognition of its capital even while other nations have had their embassies there over the years… and that’s a major victory for those who want the US to place its embassy there. With Obama’s election, we’re now at a point where we may very well see more than two entire decades of the US not placing its embassy in Jerusalem. And for some, that’s proof of the fact that the US does whatever Israel/AIPAC says. When people can point to the embassy not being in Jerusalem as proof of the fact that those who want the embassy in Jerusalem have gotten what they want, it’s rather obvious that reality has taken a back seat to, well. this isn’t the correct forum to discuss the dynamic. The fact that there are millions of highly influential Christian Zionists in the United States, to say nothing of ordinary Americans who support Israel over the Palestinians by a massive margin, is simply to be disregarded in favor of conspiracy theories. AIPAC did it, even if what happened isn’t what AIPAC says they want. Israel did it, even if what happened isn’t what Israel wants. To someone convinced that Israel and/or AIPAC set US foreign policy, even their _failures_ are proof of their success. The Gods themselves contend in vain with conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604/60 "2009-01-11T23:48:08Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I wouldn’t assume that the law in question is solely the result of AIPAC lobbying. There are a lot of evangelical Christians in the United States. Here is a quote from what appears to be a Christian web site: Undoubtedly there are other groups, but AIPAC is the big fish. They are consistently ranked as one of the most powerful and influential lobbying groups. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-support-of-israel-such-a-huge-requirement-for-american-politicians/480604.md?page=4)