# Why Is Ted kennedy being Deified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372 "2008-05-23T16:05:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2008, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/41 "2008-05-24T17:09:01Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] He was found not guilty in Brussels. Just let it go. [/QUOTE] Yah, he paid his $30 fine. It’s not like he did something the media would get excited about. Unlike the underwear impaired elite of Hollywood, he knows how to exit a vehicle with class. His behind the scene ability to handle a crisis would have made him a president of note. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2008, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/42 "2008-05-24T19:55:32Z")
[QUOTE=Orbifold] About the Ted Kennedy thing: he’s served his country in government for a long time, and his family has sacrificed…_literally_…a great deal in the service of their country. Some respect for that is due, if nothing else. [/QUOTE] Cite. What sacrifices has Ted or any Kennedy made? Having two of them assassinated is hardly a sacrifice. A sacrifice is something does voluntarily, with the knowledge that one is giving something up that may otherwise benefit him. Those two deaths were great losses, and get my great sympathy, but they are hardly sacrifices. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/43 "2008-05-24T19:59:39Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Kennedy only had 2 brothers assassinated in American politics. He has spent a lifetime being on the side of the poor or middle class. He has been an active legislator for many years. There is much to like about him. When people die or it seems they will soon ,many look past their warts and see the good they have done. Even Reagan and the place filling Ford were treated as heroes. [/QUOTE] Sheesh. How does someone’s having family members killed generate like directed to that person? You agree with his policies, fine. He served as a senator for a long time, that’s not automatically a good thing. Now, while I don’t like the guy, I don’t bask in his current horrible situation. What I wish on him is a long life—out of the senate—where he realizes “Fuck, :smack: , what was I thinking!” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/44 "2008-05-24T20:18:37Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Sheesh. How does someone’s having family members killed generate like directed to that person? You agree with his policies, fine. He served as a senator for a long time, that’s not automatically a good thing. Now, while I don’t like the guy, I don’t bask in his current horrible situation. What I wish on him is a long life—out of the senate—where he realizes “Fuck, :smack: , what was I thinking!” [/QUOTE] You were thinking if he is not conservative like you he is evil. Yet we have had liberals and conservatives for a long time. Sometimes they wake up. Conservatives see Bush and Cheney remake America into something ugly is a short time. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/45 "2008-05-24T20:34:57Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] You were thinking if he is not conservative like you he is evil. Yet we have had liberals and conservatives for a long time. Sometimes they wake up. Conservatives see Bush and Cheney remake America into something ugly is a short time. [/QUOTE] Huh? How the fuck did you get that from my post? Try using the words that appear on the screen. They can come in handy when attempting to glean what someone is saying. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/46 "2008-05-24T20:57:35Z")
A long life out of the senate where he would he would realize fuck what was I thinking. Your dingbat words not mine. Try remembering what you write before saying I did not read them. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/47 "2008-05-24T21:00:04Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Cite. What sacrifices has Ted or any Kennedy made? Having two of them assassinated is hardly a sacrifice. A sacrifice is something does voluntarily, with the knowledge that one is giving something up that may otherwise benefit him. Those two deaths were great losses, and get my great sympathy, but they are hardly sacrifices. [/QUOTE] Oh, come on, that’s not fair. For one thing, Joe Jr. died in the war…that’s clearly a sacrifice. And JFK came damn near dying in that war himself. And he and his brother were assassinated while they were in public service to their country. It may not be quite the same thing as the sacrifice Joe Jr. made, but it IS a sacrifice. Bobby, in particular, was in public service at a very volatile time in our history, and I’m sure it crossed his mind once or twice that the same thing might happen to him as happened to Jack. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2008, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/48 "2008-05-24T21:09:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Oh, come on, that’s not fair. For one thing, Joe Jr. died in the war…that’s clearly a sacrifice. And JFK came damn near dying in that war himself. And he and his brother were assassinated while they were in public service to their country. It may not be quite the same thing as the sacrifice Joe Jr. made, but it IS a sacrifice. Bobby, in particular, was in public service at a very volatile time in our history, and I’m sure it crossed his mind once or twice that the same thing might happen to him as happened to Jack. [/QUOTE] If my brother died in a war, HE made the sacrifice, not me or my family. And people join the military for many reasons, one is political aspirations. While I think all who serve, regardless of their motivation, if I had designs on holding high office and thought serving in the military might help that happen, that is hardly a “sacrifice”. It’s a stepping stone. I see nothing wrong with doing that, by the way, but to call it a sacrifice, degrades the idea of true sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/49 "2008-05-24T21:24:07Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] If my brother died in a war, HE made the sacrifice, not me or my family. [/QUOTE] I think it’s a commonly accepted idea that family members are making a sacrifice when a loved one goes off to war, and especially when that loved one doesn’t come home. You hear that language all the time in such a circumstance. If my brother died in a war, you can bet I would feel as though I had made a sacrifice, and our mother an even bigger one. I think it’s parsing the meaning of the word a little too closely to claim that only the person who died made the sacrifice. The loved ones have to go on without the person, after all. > [@](#): > > And people join the military for many reasons, one is political aspirations. While I think all who serve, regardless of their motivation, if I had designs on holding high office and thought serving in the military might help that happen, that is hardly a “sacrifice”. It’s a stepping stone. I see nothing wrong with doing that, by the way, but to call it a sacrifice, degrades the idea of true sacrifice. Interesting thought, but for one thing, you are ascribing motivations to Joe Jr. that you don’t know for sure, and for another, he’s just as dead, and if he wasn’t, someone else would be in his place. So even if it wasn’t the most selfless act, I don’t see how it isn’t a sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/50 "2008-05-25T00:13:32Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] If my brother died in a war, HE made the sacrifice, not me or my family. And people join the military for many reasons, one is political aspirations. While I think all who serve, regardless of their motivation, if I had designs on holding high office and thought serving in the military might help that happen, that is hardly a “sacrifice”. It’s a stepping stone. I see nothing wrong with doing that, by the way, but to call it a sacrifice, degrades the idea of true sacrifice. [/QUOTE] Please point to another political family that has sacrificed more. The Bushes put their son where he would be safe from combat and then he didn’t even have the decency to fulfill his obligation. The only other case that comes to mind is McCain where he, his father, and his son all served. And you don’t see McCain mentioning his son’s service every 5 minutes either. I’m not sure what conservatives have against people like Kerry, McGovern, Jim Webb, and the Kennedys that actually served their country and lionize the bunch of chicken hawks that are running the current show. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/51 "2008-05-25T03:10:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I think it’s a commonly accepted idea that family members are making a sacrifice when a loved one goes off to war, and especially when that loved one doesn’t come home. You hear that language all the time in such a circumstance. If my brother died in a war, you can bet I would feel as though I had made a sacrifice, and our mother an even bigger one. I think it’s parsing the meaning of the word a little too closely to claim that only the person who died made the sacrifice. The loved ones have to go on without the person, after all. [/QUOTE] They suffer a terrible loss, they didn’t MAKE a sacrifice. Saying that the word is commonly used that way doesn’t mean there was an actual sacrifice. What act did they commit that equates to a sacrifice? What decision did they make? You can say the person who served made a sacrifice, particularly if they lose their life in the process. But for many people, choosing to serve in the military is a stepping stone. and choosing to do something with the hopes of achieving something else personally down the road is hardly a sacrifice. It’s closer to the opposite. As I said, I see nothing wrong with that at all. Those people still have my thanks as their actions benefit me. If it benefits themselves additionally, all the better. But calling it a sacrifice is a contortion of language. Much like the gross misuse of the term “hero”. [QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Interesting thought, but for one thing, you are ascribing motivations to Joe Jr. that you don’t know for sure, and for another, he’s just as dead, and if he wasn’t, someone else would be in his place. So even if it wasn’t the most selfless act, I don’t see how it isn’t a sacrifice. [/QUOTE] I’m more willing to ascribe sacrifice to the person who actually put himself in harm’s way. But let’s be honest, do you really think Joe had no political ambitions. I seem to recall that the father thought Joe was going to b e the one, not John. (But I could be wrong about that.) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/52 "2008-05-25T03:20:32Z")
[QUOTE=DanBlather] Please point to another political family that has sacrificed more. [/QUOTE] Why? What does that haver to do with anything. The point isn’t whether they sacrificed more, it’s _whether_ they sacrificed? Maybe this will help: > [@](#): > > sac·ri·fice Audio Help [sak-ruh-fahys] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -ficed, -fic·ing. > –noun > > 1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage. > 2. the person, animal, or thing so offered. > 3. the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim. > 4. the thing so surrendered or devoted. > 5. a loss incurred in selling something below its value. > 6. Also called sacrifice bunt, sacrifice hit. Baseball. a bunt made when there are fewer than two players out, not resulting in a double play, that advances the base runner nearest home without an error being committed if there is an attempt to put the runner out, and that results in either the batter’s being put out at first base, reaching first on an error made in the attempt for the put-out, or being safe because of an attempt to put out another runner. Please show what The Kennedys have offered up and who did the offering. Then we might have a “sacrifice”. [QUOTE=DanBlather] The Bushes put their son where he would be safe from combat and then he didn’t even have the decency to fulfill his obligation. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Nothing to do with anything, but gotta bash Bush… Now I see why you included the first sentence. Sad. [QUOTE=DanBlather] The only other case that comes to mind is McCain where he, his father, and his son all served. And you don’t see McCain mentioning his son’s service every 5 minutes either. [/QUOTE] And you point is… [QUOTE=DanBlather] I’m not sure what conservatives have against people like Kerry, McGovern, Jim Webb, and the Kennedys that actually served their country and lionize the bunch of chicken hawks that are running the current show. [/QUOTE] Please show where I’ve EVER lionized Bush or the gang “running the current show”. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/53 "2008-05-25T03:40:25Z")
He will most certainly join the Senate’s pantheon. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/54 "2008-05-25T03:46:38Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] They suffer a terrible loss, they didn’t MAKE a sacrifice. Saying that the word is commonly used that way doesn’t mean there was an actual sacrifice. What act did they commit that equates to a sacrifice? What decision did they make? You can say the person who served made a sacrifice, particularly if they lose their life in the process. But for many people, choosing to serve in the military is a stepping stone. and choosing to do something with the hopes of achieving something else personally down the road is hardly a sacrifice. It’s closer to the opposite. As I said, I see nothing wrong with that at all. Those people still have my thanks as their actions benefit me. If it benefits themselves additionally, all the better. But calling it a sacrifice is a contortion of language. Much like the gross misuse of the term “hero”. [/QUOTE] As I said, you have a much tighter definition of the word “sacrifice” than I do. To me, sacrifice is giving something up for a greater good. Having mixed motivations doesn’t take away from it all that much, as far as I’m concerned. If fighting for a noble cause is part of the motivation, then it’s a sacrifice. > [@](#): > > I’m more willing to ascribe sacrifice to the person who actually put himself in harm’s way. But let’s be honest, do you really think Joe had no political ambitions. I seem to recall that the father thought Joe was going to b e the one, not John. (But I could be wrong about that.) Yes, it’s commonly known that Joe Kennedy had his sights on the presidency for Joe Jr., and I’m not saying that Joe Jr. didn’t have political ambitions. But to assume that was his only reason for joining the military is not fair. After all, Jack joined up, as well, and at the time, he was under the assumption that Joe Jr. was going to fulfill the role of politician in the family…it wasn’t until Joe Jr. was killed that the ambitions fell to Jack. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/55 "2008-05-25T03:56:36Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] As I said, you have a much tighter definition of the word “sacrifice” than I do. To me, sacrifice is giving something up for a greater good. Having mixed motivations doesn’t take away from it all that much, as far as I’m concerned. If fighting for a noble cause is part of the motivation, then it’s a sacrifice. [/QUOTE] And this may very well apply to the person serving. It does not apply to their family. Keep in mind that my position casts no aspersions on the person making the sacrifice (to whatever degree that he is) or his family. [QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Yes, it’s commonly known that Joe Kennedy had his sights on the presidency for Joe Jr., and I’m not saying that Joe Jr. didn’t have political ambitions. But to assume that was his only reason for joining the military is not fair. After all, Jack joined up, as well, and at the time, he was under the assumption that Joe Jr. was going to fulfill the role of politician in the family…it wasn’t until Joe Jr. was killed that the ambitions fell to Jack. [/QUOTE] It is my opinion that every son of Joe had political aspirations. That does not in any way denigrate their service. The benefit to their country was the same. But would you say that someone who joins the service as a career with an eye to make general or admiral is “sacrificing”? Or that someone who joins the service to put them through medical school so they come out with no debt is “sacrificing”. I don’t think so. I think a good example of someone sacrificing is Pat Tillman. He left a lucrative career in the NFL as he was coming into his prime in order to serve. THAT in my mind is clearly a sacrifice. Mot that all such sacrifices have to be as stark. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/56 "2008-05-25T04:03:35Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] And this may very well apply to the person serving. It does not apply to their family. Keep in mind that my position casts no aspersions on the person making the sacrifice (to whatever degree that he is) or his family. [/QUOTE] It’s often a family decision when someone decides to join up. They usually don’t do it without the blessings of their family, who know that there is a chance they will lose the person. > [@](#): > > It is my opinion that every son of Joe had political aspirations. That does not in any way denigrate their service. The benefit to their country was the same. But would you say that someone who joins the service as a career with an eye to make general or admiral is “sacrificing”? Or that someone who joins the service to put them through medical school so they come out with no debt is “sacrificing”. I don’t think so. I think a good example of someone sacrificing is Pat Tillman. He left a lucrative career in the NFL as he was coming into his prime in order to serve. THAT in my mind is clearly a sacrifice. Mot that all such sacrifices have to be as stark. Whether or not all the Kennedys had political aspirations, I don’t know. I have always heard that Jack was not inclined towards a politcal career until he had family pressure to do so. But you are missing my point about the sacrifice. It’s not necessarily a sacrifice to _join the military_. It’s not necessarily a sacrifice to _serve_ (although if you know you’re going to be sent away from your home & family for a long time, it may be). But it IS a sacrifice to _die_ in the service of your country. A general or an admiral who dies while in service (not that it happens that often, but still…) is sacrificing…I don’t care how much gain there was while they were alive. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/57 "2008-05-25T05:11:36Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] It’s often a family decision when someone decides to join up. They usually don’t do it without the blessings of their family, who know that there is a chance they will lose the person. [/QUOTE] I think that, while this can be the case, you are going to far if you think it to be a general rule. It’s great of family members can be comfortable with the decision, but most people who want to go will go nonetheless. It is vastly a personal decision to put one’s self in harms way. [QUOTE=Sarahfeena] A general or an admiral who dies while in service (not that it happens that often, but still…) is sacrificing…I don’t care how much gain there was while they were alive. [/QUOTE] I would say that they put themselves into a position where their lives may be sacrificed for their country. If they lose their life, they have made the ultimate sacrifice. If they do not lose their life, it’s still an open question. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/58 "2008-05-25T14:46:13Z")
**Magellan,** let’s just say we have a very different idea of the meaning of the word sacrifice. No sense in going back and forth saying the same things and failing to convince each other. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/59 "2008-05-25T18:34:06Z")
Speaking of Kennedy sacrifices, does it have to be a family member? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-ted-kennedy-being-deified/450372/60 "2008-05-25T18:37:36Z")
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