# Why is \[the\] Baha'i \[faith\] not more popular? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 1, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335 "2013-07-01T12:40:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/41 "2013-07-02T02:38:25Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Taking the best ideas out of the world’s major religious sounds like some feel-good, made-up thing to them. The Baha’i faith is a new religion and is not a combination of other religions, though, so this objection is not really valid. I think the confusion stems from our acknowledgment of various prophets, so people mistakenly think that we are just a fusion of all of them. Like **Bob Ducca** said, we think Krishna and Zoroaster were righteous dudes, but that doesn’t mean we mishmashed our religion from theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/42 "2013-07-02T03:22:54Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > More back to the OP’s original question, why is the faith not more popular? The faith was actually gaining adherents very fast in the 1800’s in Iran, but after a failed assasination attempt on the King of Persia by a rogue baha’i who was excommunicated for it, there was systematic-killing and torture of baha’is. It was a group of Babis, not Baha’is. The assassination attempt was in retaliation for the execution of the Bab. The Bahai faith hadn’t developed at that point (and, in fact, it was when Bahá’u’lláh was imprisoned as part of the Persian government’s execution and imprisonment of Babis in response to the assassination attempt that he claimed he got the divine revelation saying he was the final Manifestation of God.) Also, just as an observation, it’s interesting how Bahá’u’lláh really tried to do the same thing that Mohammed did. Both of them claimed that God had sent prophets to individual nations and that they were the ultimate Prophet, who came with God’s message for all of mankind. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/43 "2013-07-02T06:13:26Z")
I agree with many of the points above, but wanted to add: The OP assumes the common idea that the more sensible and pragmatic a religion is, and the less it inconveniences the rest of your life, the more popular it should be. I disagree. I think successful religions need at least some arbitrary rules. That’s so you feel like the religion is teaching you something practical you didn’t already know. And they should require sacrifices – that way, you can get the warm feeling of doing something for a higher cause. Making donations is a form of sacrifice, but I think that alone doesn’t press enough psychological buttons. So…I don’t know much about Baha’i. But if it close to the hypothetical religion of “just be good to each other” I can see why it’s not very popular. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/44 "2013-07-02T07:54:03Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > So…I don’t know much about Baha’i. But if it close to the hypothetical religion of “just be good to each other” I can see why it’s not very popular. Close, but I would say it’s closer to “everybody’s god is real and everybody’s religion is right, so let’s just behave.” Part of religion is being a part of a community, and you can’t really get a sense of community if you have no concept of the “other.” Not enemies, just “not us.” I don’t really get the impression that Baha’i (or Universalists, for that matter) have that, so I think the growth of either is pretty limited. It’s like Communism: sounds great, but monkey brains have problems processing it en mass. ---
**Author:** ![Sen\_McGlinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Sen\_McGlinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sen_McGlinn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/45 "2013-07-02T09:06:25Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I just read the Wikipedia entry on the faith. > > I’m puzzled by the position on homosexuality. Modern psychology has come to the conclusion that homosexuality is not a sickness and cannot be cured. Yet the authorities of the Baha’i religion seem to continue to say that. This seems to conflict with the ‘if science and religion disagree, religion is wrong’ principle. It’s not as simple as that. In fact (in my view) that’s not Bahai teachings at all. There are letters written by the Guardian’s secretary that say that homosexuality is an illness and can be cured. That was the science of the time. Such letters have to be read in the light of general principles about the weight of these letters: “The infallibility of the Guardian is confined to matters which are related strictly to the Cause and interpretation of the teachings; \*\*he is not an infallible authority on \*\*other subjects, such as economics, **science** , etc. When he feels that a certain thing is essential for the protection of the Cause, even if it is something that affects a person personally, he must be obeyed, but when he gives advice, such as that he gave you in a previous letter about your future, **it is not binding; you are free to follow it or not as you please**.” (Directives from the Guardian, p. 33) So as a Bahai it is perfectly OK to say, science has shown that homosexual orientation is not an illness (although people suffer from it in a discriminating or prejudiced setting) and there is in any case no way of changing it that can be medically recommended. And it would have been perfectly OK at the time, for the individuals who got letters from Shoghi Effendi or his secretaries saying they should seek medical assistance to treat their homosexuality, to say, “that’s not going to work for me.” The principle of the harmony of religion and science is preserved, simply by saying that the religious texts do not give us reliable scientific information. However - what I have used above is official hermeneutics. The Bahai texts are created in various ways, from letters written by the Guardian’s secretaries in English to texts written by Baha’u’llah in his own hand, and there is a corresponding set of principles given in the texts, that tell us about the weight of each text, how it can be used and how it may not be used. It’s all too complicated for some Bahais, which is OK if they will let their hearts guide them. The problem really is with Bahais who don’t understand the framework of interpretation (hermeneutics) relating to various types of text, and don’t trust their own hearts, and instead throw every imaginable text into a kind of law-book, where you can pick out any subsection and paragraph, and it gives you a rule on how to live your life. And how to tell others they have to live their lives. As Jesus said, “I will not always be with you, but the simplistic literalists will bug all religions for all time.” To get back to the OP, Bahai is doing fairly well historically. The model to look at would be Rodney Stark’s history of early Christianity, in which he shows that the “mass conversions” some historians have posited never happened and are not requried as an explanation for the size of the Christian community. A steady growth of a few percent per year, carried out consistently over 3 centuries, produces a world religion (in whatever ‘world’ exists at the time: the roman world in that case). He has done similar work on Mormon history. The growth of a few percent per year occurs through personal networks: they expand at a rate which has rough-and-ready laws, such as, the proportion of network connections which are outside the community declines, as the community grows. It is, in short, a dynamic that can be understood and worked with, to build sustainable attractive communities. I have some references and reflection on this on my blog at: > **[Stark choices](https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/03/08/stark-choices/)** > > “Many new religious movements fail because they quickly become closed, or semiclosed networks. That is, they fail to keep forming and sustaining attachments to outsiders and thereby lose the … There is also a reference to his research in another entry, relevant to the idea of everyone becoming a Bahai (Not): > **[Foundations for inter-faith sharing](https://senmcglinn.wordpress.com/2009/04/18/ecumenicism/)** > > “… the Bahai community and humanity have a vital interest in the health and productivity of the world’s great religious systems, and in harmony and cooperation between them wherev… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/46 "2013-07-02T10:43:53Z")
> [@Sen\_McGlinn](#): > > It’s not as simple as that. In fact (in my view) that’s not Bahai teachings at all. There are letters written by the Guardian’s secretary that say that homosexuality is an illness and can be cured. That was the science of the time. Sure, but it’s not just Shoghi Effendi who said it. The Universal House of Justice is condemning homosexuality today. > [@](#): > > "The purpose of the Faith of Bahá’u’lláh is the realization of the organic unity of the entire human race, and Bahá’ís are enjoined to eliminate from their lives all forms of prejudice and to manifest respect towards all. Therefore, to regard those with a homosexual orientation with prejudice or disdain would be against the spirit of the Faith. Furthermore, a Bahá’í is exhorted to be “an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression”, and it would be entirely appropriate for a believer to come to the defense of those whose fundamental rights are being denied or violated. > > "At the same time, you are no doubt aware of the relevant teachings of the Faith that govern the personal conduct of Bahá’ís. The Bahá’í Writings state that marriage is a union between a man and a woman and that sexual relations are restricted to a couple who are married to each other. Other passages from the Writings state that the practice of homosexuality is not permitted. The teachings of Bahá’u’lláh on personal morality are binding on Bahá’ís, who strive, as best they can, to live up to the high standards He has established. > > “In attempting to reconcile what may appear to be conflicting obligations, it is important to understand that the Bahá’í community does not seek to impose its values on others, nor does it pass judgment on others on the basis of its own moral standards. It does not see itself as one among competing social groups and organizations, each vying to establish its particular social agenda. In working for social justice, Bahá’ís must inevitably distinguish between those dimensions of public issues that are in keeping with the Bahá’í Teachings, which they can actively support, and those that are not, which they would neither promote nor necessarily oppose. In connection with issues of concern to homosexuals, the former would be freedom from discrimination and the latter the opportunity for civil marriage. Such distinctions are unavoidable when addressing any social issue. For example, Bahá’ís actively work for the establishment of world peace but, in the process, do not engage in partisan political activities directed against particular governments.” That’s from 2010. So it seems like that very much is Baha’i teaching today, and not just 50 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/47 "2013-07-02T11:59:40Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The OP assumes the common idea that the more sensible and pragmatic a religion is, and the less it inconveniences the rest of your life, the more popular it should be. I disagree. > > I think successful religions need at least some arbitrary rules. That’s so you feel like the religion is teaching you something practical you didn’t already know. > And they should require sacrifices – that way, you can get the warm feeling of doing something for a higher cause. That’s an interesting perspective. Thanks. The cynic in me has a big problem with some 19th century Persian declaring himself a divine messenger, while saying no one else should be able to do the same. Same bullshit as Jews saying the cut-off point was some time in whenever-BCE. But the ideas I sensed of tolerance were quite appealing. Not sure where else I’ve seen the star of david, star and crescent, cross, hooked cross displayed so equally and prominently. And, as someone who finds the specific claims of religions laughable, I found appealing the vagueness and ambiguity I sensed. Shoulda known that behind the scenes there’d be someone declaring specifics such as homosexuality is bad, or no pot for you. I really have a hard time understanding why so many ostensiby intelligent people accept various religions. (It is easy to see the appeal for ignorant and prejudiced folk, but clearly all religious folk are not that.) I vacillate between thinking something is lacking - or enabled, in them - or me. Just, from what little I saw and read on Sunday, the Baha’i Faith (thanks **Revtim** - now I can’t type that without hearing Jerry Lewis in my mind!) impressed this heathen as less obviously ridiculous and offensive than just about every other mainstream religion. Oh well. I guess I’ll go paint myself blue and hoot up a tree. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/48 "2013-07-02T14:27:17Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > The Baha’i faith is a new religion and is not a combination of other religions, though, so this objection is not really valid. I think the confusion stems from our acknowledgment of various prophets, so people mistakenly think that we are just a fusion of all of them. Like **Bob Ducca** said, we think Krishna and Zoroaster were righteous dudes, but that doesn’t mean we mishmashed our religion from theirs. Also, it may be confusing to people that visit the temple in Wilmette to see that built into the external design of the architecture are a cross, a Star of David, the Star & Crescent, and symbols from other religions (I think a swastika for Hindu, maybe?). [Here’s a photo of what I’m talking about.](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Wilmette_how_side.jpg) By the way, regardless of your viewpoint of the Baha’i Faith as a religion, the story of the construction of that temple is pretty incredible. It took them almost 50 years from the time they purchased the property to the completion of the temple. I believe they bought the land and began holding prayer meetings there around 1907, construction began in earnest around 1920 and it was completed in '53. ---
**Author:** ![Sen\_McGlinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Sen\_McGlinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sen_McGlinn)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/49 "2013-07-02T16:22:11Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Sure, but it’s not just Shoghi Effendi who said it. The Universal House of Justice is condemning homosexuality today. > … That’s from 2010. So it seems like that very much is Baha’i teaching today, and not just 50 years ago. In the Bahai context, that letter was a large step forward. Not a giant step maybe, but definitely significant, in two respects (1) it reprimands certain national and local Bahai assemblies that had publicly opposed the legal recognition of same-sex marriages. Not everyone has got that memo, but now there is a policy document we can point to when an assembly does [this sort of thing](http://www.news-leader.com/article/20130619/NEWS01/306190065/springfield-nondiscrimination-churches-disapprove) they can be [called to account like this](http://www.news-leader.com/article/20130623/OPINIONS03/306230057/Baha-i-had-higher-expectations). (2) There is no mention there of homosexuality as an affliction, a burden, a handicap, or of “therapeutic resources” “the advice and help of doctors.” When compared to previous messages on the topic, this silence is eloquent. Religious teachings do not prevail over science. ---
**Author:** ![Terrible\_Twos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@Terrible\_Twos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrible_Twos)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/50 "2013-07-02T16:44:34Z")
In my opinion, it’s a very good question why the Baha’i Faith is not more popular. I think there are a mix of factors: some trends in the world today diminish interest in religion in general and other issues specifically relate to features of the Baha’i Faith which challenge one group or the other. Here are ones which come to mind… (1) For one thing, the Baha’i Faith is relatively “progressive socially” which turns off a lot of people. The idea of the oneness of the human race, the essential commonality of all religions, equality of the sexes, encouragement of inter-racial marriage, global justice and the evolution of global institutions which to some degree would supplant exclusive rights, are just some of the key teachings which many find it hard to agree with (2) On the other hand, the Baha’i Faith is inescapably religious through and through at the core. It deals at a very deep level with the nature of reality, the soul, Divinity, prayer and meditation, love, the development of virtue etc. which fewer and fewer people seem to appreciate. For example, in Canada where I am from, government statistics show quite a rapid increase in the number of those people saying they have no religion. Mind you, large numbers of these people report themselves as spiritual. (3) The mood of the age we live in is, in my opinion, broadly materialistic and individualistic. This absorbs a large amount of energy which would otherwise impell people to search for deeper truths. Witness the astounding interest worldwide in drinking, sports, celebrities etc. and the superficiality of thinking. Publishers’ Weekly reports that 42% of college graduates don’t read a single book after graduation. (4) Religion itself has acquired a bad name which would undermine the desire to change one’s religion. The tendency is more to drop religion. The reason being the amount of hypocrisy, corruption, narrow-mindedness, wealth etc. having been exposed. (5) one of the core teachings of the Baha’i Faith is extremely challenging - that it is the most recent Revelation. Although the Baha’i Writings offer a lot of examples of how it fulfills prophecies of many religions, how many people really want to explore this and to change their religion. The typical reaction is to become defensive. (6) The language employed in the Baha’i Faith is not at a grade six level and includes older English words such as Thee and Thou. As well as Arab and Persian names which some people find problematic. (7) People mistakenly think the Baha’i Faith is Islamic. It was born and originally grew in the Near and Middle East but, in fact, is very universal - having been successful in attracting converts from every background everywhere including people in China and other countries who do not necessarily start with a concept of God but gradually grow to understand it. Baha’i communities in North America include a large representation of Iranians which while bringing together the East and the West, does make the Baha’i ‘culture’ something different. (8) While the Baha’i Faith is basically about universal love and relies on mutual assistance, inspiration and encouragemen as its main approach, there are a few closely held standards which many people just find too onerous: it prohibits alcohol and mind-altering drugs, homosexuality and sex outside of marriage. (9) Undoubtably, a major factor reducing popularity has got to be the ability of the Baha’is themselves to transform themselves and show in their own lives a deep understanding of their own faith and an ability to align their lives along Baha’i principles. While I personally have been impressed with the behavior and level of consciousness of Baha’is and Baha’i communities, it is clear that the Baha’i Faith has attracted people of all types, in some cases across the broadest spectrum. Most people, I find, just want to be with people like themselves, whether from the same race, religion, education or economic background. By the way, the Baha’i Faith is one of the most wide-spread religions in the world (ref: Encyclopedia Brittanica) and numbers some 5 million. So, it has grown significantly. Even growing 2% per year, which it is probably doing, would mean there would be 1.6 billion Baha’is in 300 years, doubling every 50 years. All countries have, at least in large part, over time converted from one religion to another. Indonesia, for example, has been Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim. However, the religion predicts that the masses will eventually enter in large numbers world wide following a chain of unforeseen and unpredictable events. To what degree this conversion is the result of global disasters, environmental or nuclear for example, or an inexorably deepening political, economic or moral crisis worldwide, or relates to the loss of reputation of other religions or the rise of inspiring individuals or nations which are predominantly Baha’i, is unknown. The Baha’i belief is also that the world will achieve more and more degrees of global unity, which we see every day in the form of borders becoming less relevant in trade, travel and in international cooperation and treaties. And that this will lead to humanity to seek the Baha’i Faith as a religion most aligned with the needs of a globalized world and the concept of unity in diversity. While the official numbers of Baha’is may not be large, I find that there is a large reserve of interest in this religion. Quite a few times, I hear people say “if I had to belong to or change religion, it would be the Baha’i Faith”. What we see around us is, in large part, something we could not have predicted even 50 years ago much less 500 years ago. We can conclude, therefore, that the future will look very different than we imagine. Toynbee, the renowned historian, believed that the Baha’i Faith would be the next great religion. Stranger things have happened. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/51 "2013-07-02T16:55:08Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I agree with many of the points above, but wanted to add: > > The OP assumes the common idea that the more sensible and pragmatic a religion is, and the less it inconveniences the rest of your life, the more popular it should be. I disagree. > > I think successful religions need at least some arbitrary rules. That’s so you feel like the religion is teaching you something practical you didn’t already know. > And they should require sacrifices – that way, you can get the warm feeling of doing something for a higher cause. Making donations is a form of sacrifice, but I think that alone doesn’t press enough psychological buttons. > > So…I don’t know much about Baha’i. But if it close to the hypothetical religion of “just be good to each other” I can see why it’s not very popular. It is not very close to “just be good to each other”. Sacrifice-wise, there is a 19 day period of fasting every year, and at all times giving up alcohol and drugs. It’s a lot more involved than donating money and being nice to people 🙂 > [@Randvek](#): > > Part of religion is being a part of a community, and you can’t really get a sense of community if you have no concept of the “other.” Not enemies, just “not us.” I don’t really get the impression that Baha’i (or Universalists, for that matter) have that, so I think the growth of either is pretty limited. It’s like Communism: sounds great, but monkey brains have problems processing it en mass. You should try attending some Baha’i events, because there is an extremely strong sense of community, we don’t meet at neutral ground in churches, we meet in each others’ homes. So in fact, pretty much the opposite of not having a sense of community. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/52 "2013-07-02T23:54:18Z")
> [@Sen\_McGlinn](#): > > (2) There is no mention there of homosexuality as an affliction, a burden, a handicap, or of “therapeutic resources” “the advice and help of doctors.” When compared to previous messages on the topic, this silence is eloquent. Religious teachings do not prevail over science. I’d agree with you, if they didn’t also say: > **[Homosexual Practices, Baha'i Teachings on](https://bahai-library.com/uhj_homosexual_practices)** > > Overview of Baha'i teachings towards homosexual practices, and how the community should approach homosexuals. > [@](#): > > Our appetites and inclinations are strongly influenced by the condition of our physical makeup, and our bodies are in varying degrees of health, depending upon factors such as heredity, environment, nourishment and our own treatment of them. Genetic variations occur, producing conditions which can create problems for the individual. Some conditions are of an emotional or psychological nature, producing such imbalances as quickness to anger, recklessness, timorousness, and so forth; others involve purely physical characteristics, resulting not only in unusual capacities but also in handicaps or diseases of various kinds. > > ``` > Whether deficiencies are inborn or are acquired, our purpose in this life is to overcome them and to train ourselves in accordance with the pattern that is revealed to us in the divine Teachings. > > The view that homosexuality is a condition that is not amenable to change is to be questioned by Bahá'ís. There are, of course, many kinds and degrees of homosexuality, and overcoming extreme conditions is sure to be more difficult than overcoming others. Nevertheless, as noted earlier, the Guardian has stated that "through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap." > > The statistics which indicate that homosexuality is incurable are undoubtedly distorted by the fact that many of those who overcome the problem never speak about it in public, and others solve their problems without even consulting professional counselors. > > Nevertheless there are undoubtedly cases in which the individual finds himself (or herself) unable to eliminate a physical attraction to members of the same sex, even though he succeeds in controlling his behavior. This is but one of the many trials and temptations to which human beings are subject in this life. For Bahá'ís, it cannot alter the basic concept taught by Bahá'u'lláh, that the kind of sexuality purposed by God is the love between a man and a woman, and that its primary (but not its only) purpose is the bringing of children into this world and providing them with a loving and protective environment in which they can be reared to know and love God. > > If, therefore, a homosexual cannot overcome his or her condition to the extent of being able to have a heterosexual marriage, he or she must remain single, and abstain from sexual relations. These are the same requirements as for a heterosexual person who does not marry. While Bahá'u'lláh encourages the believers to marry, it is important to note that marriage is by no means an obligation. It is for the individual to decide whether he or she wishes to lead a family life or to live in a state of celibacy. > > The condition of being sexually attracted to some object other than a mature member of the opposite sex, a condition of which homosexuality is but one manifestation, is regarded by the Faith as a distortion of true human nature, as a problem to be overcome, no matter what specific physical or psychological condition may be the immediate cause. Any Bahá'í who suffers from such a disability should be treated with understanding, and should be helped to control and overcome it. All of us suffer from imperfections which we must struggle to overcome, and we all need one another's understanding and patience. > > ``` Look, the Baha’i faith has a problem with homosexuality. It’s not unique in this. A lot of religions, especially coming out of the Abrahamic tradition, do. It’s not even the worst in that regard. And maybe it’s changing. But don’t pretend your religion is some bastion of pure reason and tolerance. It may strive for that, but it’s got its own prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Sen\_McGlinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@Sen\_McGlinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sen_McGlinn)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/53 "2013-07-03T07:48:49Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’d agree with you, if they didn’t also say: > > [Homosexual Practices, Bahá'í Teachings on](http://bahai-library.com/uhj_homosexual_practices) > > Look, the Baha’i faith has a problem with homosexuality. It’s not unique in this. A lot of religions, especially coming out of the Abrahamic tradition, do. It’s not even the worst in that regard. And maybe it’s changing. But don’t pretend your religion is some bastion of pure reason and tolerance. It may strive for that, but it’s got its own prejudices. I agree. It took about a generation for the American Bahais of the 1910s and 1920s to get used to the idea of mixed-race meetings. The message from the Universal House of Justice that you quoted was from 1995, and is full of the idea that homosexuality is an affliction that can be cured. The 2010 message is silent on that score. I think this means that the science has now been accepted. The 1995 message also equates homosexuality with pederasty, sodomy and blatant immorality. Not sure whether the penny has dropped on that one, but with the spreading recognition of same-sex marriages, I am sure it will. When two people commit to supporting and sustaining one another materially and emotionally, that cannot be called immoral by any reasonable standard. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/54 "2013-07-03T13:48:30Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > Speaking personally since I don’t have scripture to back this up, I’d hazard a guess that most Baha’i would say you _don’t_ believe in God, not that you can’t. 😛 They might be guessing, and they might be wrong. Suffice it to say that I tried, very hard, for years, to believe in God, and failed. This doesn’t necessarily mean I’m incapable, but it does mean that I was unable to. It’s consistent with being incapable. Since we never really know our capabilities, it’s usually subject to doubt when we say “I’m incapable of X.” So, when someone says that, we take it with a grain of salt, but we don’t dismiss it as a choice or a momentary happenstance. It definitely means more to the person uttering the sentence than “I don’t X,” and it’s demeaning and dismissive to retort back the equivalent of: “Sure you can, you’re just not trying hard enough.” Yes, I was being dismissive and demeaning when I paraphrase your reply as I did just above, for rhetorical purposes only. I realize you weren’t intentionally so, but hope you get the point. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/55 "2013-07-05T08:30:23Z")
I attended meetings of those belonging to the Baha’i Faith in Nashville in the 1970s. I did not become a member of the faith because I just couldn’t accept that Bahá’u’lláh was a _greater_ prophet than Jesus. I think I could have given up alcohol although I didn’t choose to at the time. And I hope that the Baha’i Faith becomes more accepting of those who are actively gay. Does the Baha’i Faith still discourage political discourse? I’m from a family where we discussed politics at every meal. But I believe very strongly in the unity of all people and a “citizen of the world” way of thinking. I wish that I could be a Baha’i. The ones I have met have been the kindest and friendliest of any religious group that I have met. No one was pushy. And they seemed to make a point of being law-abiding – which I thought was interesting. There was a very popular singing duo back then who would stay after their concerts to talk about the Baha’i Faith. I think it may have been Seals and Croft. There was one of them who said something about religion and science leading in the same direction. (That may be expressing what he said very poorly.) That struck a chord with me. So did their positive stance on gender equality. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/56 "2013-07-05T16:15:12Z")
> [@Sen\_McGlinn](#): > > Both yellowjacketcoder and Rogerbox have misunderstood what the Bahais are saying about the need for a world government. It is not a Bahai government, but a commonwealth of nations, and as nations are of all different creeds and cultures, it would necessarily be a mixed bag. Shoghi Effendi (great-grandson of the founder, and the Bahai Faith’s “official theologian” in effect), writes > he goes one with a lot of details, you can read it here: > [Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 202-206](http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/se/WOB/wob-56.html) > The link goes to the Bahai Reference Library where you can find a considerable number of Bahai books, free for the having, or to read online. There’s a search engine too. > > Basically, the idea is not the abolition of nations, races, religions and classes, rather it is a framework of agreed principles and mechanisms that makes the diverse human family secure, peaceful and somewhat governable. The catchword is “unity in diversity” NOT “everyone become Bahai, then we can start doing stuff.” That would be totally unrealistic, and the Bahai founding figures (the Bab, Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi) were not unrealistic utopians. They had an analysis of the world’s problems and a plan. Not a plan to be imposed on others, but a plan in the sense of foreseeing what kind of measures the nations of the world would eventually be compelled by their own interests and the necessities of history to adopt. And what they foresaw is more or less happening, I went to the local Bahai temple through a friend whom had been a member since she was a teenager. IMHO it’s one of the most progressive and practical religions out there. I appreciate the way they focus on personal and societal improvement. They stress the independent search for truth rather than dogma. That includes the concept that science and religion must agree. That education for all is a priority for the betterment of mankind. That no religion is THE ONE, but all are an imperfet part of God’s realationship with mankind. Respect for other cultures and all people while funding common principles of unity etc. During services which are orginized by individuals who volumteer because there is no clergy, they read from any source that deals with the principle. I have a Christian background and this appealed to me as being more in line with what Jesus taught than what some Christian churches teach. Its my understanding that Bahai do not proslatyze. They will glady answer questions and all are welcome All the times I went nobody tried to convert me. After about a year I was asked if I would object to talking to some members about joining. I’m not a joiner although I enjoyed the spirit of their services. That may have something to do with their slow growth. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/57 "2013-07-05T16:21:44Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I attended meetings of those belonging to the Baha’i Faith in Nashville in the 1970s. I did not become a member of the faith because I just couldn’t accept that Bahá’u’lláh was a _greater_ prophet than Jesus. I think I could have given up alcohol although I didn’t choose to at the time. And I hope that the Baha’i Faith becomes more accepting of those who are actively gay. Does the Baha’i Faith still discourage political discourse? I’m from a family where we discussed politics at every meal. > > But I believe very strongly in the unity of all people and a “citizen of the world” way of thinking. I wish that I could be a Baha’i. The ones I have met have been the kindest and friendliest of any religious group that I have met. No one was pushy. And they seemed to make a point of being law-abiding – which I thought was interesting. > > There was a very popular singing duo back then who would stay after their concerts to talk about the Baha’i Faith. I think it may have been Seals and Croft. There was one of them who said something about religion and science leading in the same direction. (That may be expressing what he said very poorly.) That struck a chord with me. So did their positive stance on gender equality. Yes, Seals and Crofts are Bahai, as well as Dan Seals. A friend from the band Exile tells a funny story of his band being invited to a “party” hosted by Seals and Crofts and their subtance abuser of a manager was so mad that there was no alcihol or drugs availalble. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/58 "2013-07-05T16:43:36Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I don’t see what (And I don’t mean this to be insulting) Baha’i is offering that can’t be found in various sects of other religions. > > I see an obstacle in that Baha’i requires you to recognize Jesus, Mohammed and Bahulla as prophets. > > Judaism holds that all the prophets are in the Torah. There are no more. Saying somebody else was a prophet is heresy. > > Some sects of Christianity, as I understand them (I’m sure some one will correct me if I’m wrong) hold that various other folks (from Joseph Smith to Francis of Asisi) were prophets. BUT That these prophets got their powers and message from Jesus. No true prophet would preach a message that goes against Jesus. Such a thing is heresy. > > Islam holds that Mohammed was the last prophet. Any other claim is heresy. That points out one of the things the Bahai faith offers. When seekers ask, “which religion is the true one” the Bahai teach that none are, and the search for truth is up to the individual. History demonstrates how the teachings of certain religous figures is distorted and changed over time. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/59 "2013-07-05T16:53:22Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > The Baha’i faith is a new religion and is not a combination of other religions, though, so this objection is not really valid. I think the confusion stems from our acknowledgment of various prophets, so people mistakenly think that we are just a fusion of all of them. Like **Bob Ducca** said, we think Krishna and Zoroaster were righteous dudes, but that doesn’t mean we mishmashed our religion from theirs. Well, it seems to me that all these teachers were teaching the same principles about the unity of mankind etc. The reason I was attracted to the Bahai was that it’s teachings seemed to me to be a modern and truer version of the essence of what Jesus taught, a reficusing if you will on the important essentials without the distortions that man always inserts. So, while The BAhai faith is not consciously borrowed from other religions , it certainly shares a lot in common with them. For me, that’s a positive. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335/60 "2013-07-05T17:15:51Z")
There are all kinds of upstart religions with great ideas out there, but it seems to me that every major religion became “major” right about when they gained some kind of government support. Most people stick with the tradition they grew up in, and I think the only way to have a massive shift is to bring together religious and civic life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-bahai-faith-not-more-popular/662335.md?page=4)