# Why is the Catholic Church against Freemasonry? Can there be peace? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234 "2005-02-28T01:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/61 "2005-03-04T00:59:55Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > A man joining the Masonic Fraternity swears that he is not motivated by any consideration of business advantage. So, the answer to your question is: No [homer simpson] But what if I were to shake your hand in **this** wise? [/homer simpson] ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/62 "2005-03-04T01:13:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But that was my question. **Does** the post-Vatican-II Church still frown on Freemasonry? Has John Paul II ever said a word against it? Well, obviously, as joining the Masons is still grounds for excommunication. And they don’t excommunicate anyone on a whim. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/63 "2005-03-04T01:17:17Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This however does not shake my faith in Christ that I was brought up with. Gnostic Christianity is to me a reincarnation of the Mithraic cults. I don’t quite follow you here. Are you saying that your faith in Christ is in line with Gnostic Christianity? Just a question for you. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/64 "2005-03-04T01:17:30Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, obviously, as joining the Masons is still grounds for excommunication. But is it, still? I haven’t seen that conclusively demonstrated in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/65 "2005-03-04T01:39:38Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > A man joining the Masonic Fraternity swears that he is not motivated by any consideration of business advantage. So, the answer to your question is: No I think that if members weren’t expected to give each other business advantages, they wouldn’t find it necessary to make people swear that wasn’t their motivation. It would be like making them swear they weren’t joining to get free punch ‘n’ pie, even though there was neither punch nor pie on the premises. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/66 "2005-03-04T02:15:18Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > I think that if members weren’t expected to give each other business advantages, they wouldn’t find it necessary to make people swear that wasn’t their motivation. > > It would be like making them swear they weren’t joining to get free punch ‘n’ pie, even though there was neither punch nor pie on the premises. Ah, **Neurotik** , you miss the point, my confrere. “A man joining the Masonic Fraternity swears that he is not motivated by any consideration of business advantage.” Joining he thus swears. But later, he may change. We all do. It’s only human. And note **mswas** ’s words: “The secrets I am not allowed to divulge are my brother’s personal business”. Business here could mean business as in work, or business as in affairs. Or both. Or neither. Perhaps only Osiris knows? What makes me suspect that the Craft may contain its fair share of lawyers?Besides all the architects and stone-masons, of course. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/67 "2005-03-04T10:54:26Z")
> [@](#): > > What makes me suspect that the Craft may contain its fair share of lawyers?Besides all the architects and stone-masons, of course. > Reply With Quote Not to mention doctors, dentists, teachers, mechanics, gardeners, laborers, members of the military, state governors, presidents of the USA, senators, congresscritters, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/68 "2005-03-04T13:47:06Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > So would Mark of Arethusa, Cyrill of Heliopolis, Emperor Theodosius (408-450), Humphrey Gilbert, Fulcher of Chartres, Pope Urban II, Torquemada, Reverend Solomon Stoddard, and most recently in 1942 Ante Paveliç would all stand with you. > > Those who would disagree include Hypatia of Alexandria, John Huss, Giordano Bruno and Thomas Aikenhead. But they can’t. Because they’re dead. Killed by those on the above list. And that’s just a few. But that is beside the point. It definitely answers why both groups are relevant, as was asked by Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor in post 46. Althought to my knowledge none of the killers were Masons. Their relevency was founding the U.S. > > Cite: > P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985. > > H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961 > > ``` > A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676. > > ``` > > .B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972 So how many of those four books have you actually read? Or did you just lift them from [here](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5195/victims.html)? Or [here](http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/christ_foa.htm)? Or [here](http://www.talkaboutprogramming.com/group/comp.lang.postscript/messages/91981.html)? Or one of the other dozen or so variations of that article on the Web? Worse, you didn’t even bother to check whether those particular references are the ones that the articles cites for your examples. Thus Russell’s _Witchcraft in the Middle Ages_ is only cited to support the claim that, ‘according to modern scholars several hundred thousand’ witches were executed between 1484 and 1750, [a claim that incidentally ‘modern scholars’ now firmly reject](http://www.cog.org/witch_hunt.html). And for which of your examples is _A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences_ evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/69 "2005-03-04T17:06:42Z")
> [@APB](#): > > Or did you just lift them from [here](http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5195/victims.html)? Or [here](http://www.themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/christ_foa.htm)? Or [here](http://www.talkaboutprogramming.com/group/comp.lang.postscript/messages/91981.html)? Or one of the other dozen or so variations of that article on the Web? Hey, nice links. Thank you. However, if you want to disagree with me, feel free to do so in [Catholic Church I pit you. (not catholic dopers, however.)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=305205) as I have noted in post 53 of this thread that I am getting off topic. I have yet to see a response telling me why those deaths were necessary to the “Forces of Good”. Maybe you can. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/70 "2005-03-04T17:11:13Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > Hey, nice links. Thank you. However, if you want to disagree with me, feel free to do so in [Catholic Church I pit you. (not catholic dopers, however.)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=305205) as I have noted in post 53 of this thread that I am getting off topic. I have yet to see a response telling me why those deaths were necessary to the “Forces of Good”. Maybe you can. It’s customary to respond to a post in the thread in which it was originally posted. You give the impression of trying to avoid dealing with the observation that you don’t seem to have command of your source material. I’m sure that’s not the case; this is your opportunity to demonstrate that you’re debating in good faith. I for one am anxious to see you do so. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/71 "2005-03-04T17:32:21Z")
Alright then. I have not read over the books I quoted. As believed I simply listed them I have however read the (fiction) book [The Last Jew](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312265042/qid=1109957853/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/103-8664193-5070202?v=glance&s=books) along with college history books and have no doubt that the catholic church is a major religion. This is largely thanks to untold millions dead at the hands of good christians. I also see no more of a reason to doubt the textbooks I _have_ read than I do to believe that the moon landing was faked. Which I don’t. Now, I realize that this does not make me the most credible person to list points, but I found the apologists I read on pro-christian sites to be of even less credibility then I have with those who disbelieve my points. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/72 "2005-03-04T17:46:49Z")
Until you can actually support your assertions with reason and evidence, you will continue to lack credibility. “Well, they suck too!” is not usually considered evidentiary. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/73 "2005-03-04T17:52:15Z")
I that case I will actually look up the books mention and read them. That doesn’t make the claims any less true however. Now, anyone still around who wants to post on topic? If so, I am sorry this took so long. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/74 "2005-03-04T22:42:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, obviously, as joining the Masons is still grounds for excommunication. Not since 1983. [http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm](http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/75 "2005-03-05T02:48:48Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Not since 1983. [http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm](http://www.clearlightcatholic.com/masonic/whataremasons.htm) Really? Oh well, then I appologize. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/76 "2005-03-05T15:18:42Z")
However, even the 1983 document stated that active involvement in Freemasonry is still considered by the RCC incompatible with active participation in the Church. Only that apparently it’s now just an ordinary run-of-the-mill sin… :doubtful: ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/77 "2005-03-05T15:52:47Z")
I am amazed Masonry can create so much excitment. While we are careening off the OP so far, please take note of the phone number below. The Shrine Hospitals are the biggest chain of free hospitals in the US. I hope you never need them, but if you ever know a child in need give them a call. Free treatment, free transport, no means test, no religion test, no test as to relationship with a Shriner. Also we go little tiny cars. OK, back to your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/78 "2005-03-05T18:12:31Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > I am amazed Masonry can create so much excitment. > > While we are careening off the OP so far, please take note of the phone number below. The Shrine Hospitals are the biggest chain of free hospitals in the US. I hope you never need them, but if you ever know a child in need give them a call. > > Free treatment, free transport, no means test, no religion test, no test as to relationship with a Shriner. > > Also we go little tiny cars. > > OK, back to your arguments. I had to pop back in to agree 100% with this post. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/79 "2005-03-05T18:25:06Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Also we go little tiny cars. And funny hats. Don’t forget the funny hats. And decent circuses. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/80 "2005-03-05T18:26:37Z")
To respond to **LouisB** , are you telling us that no favor is shown to a business associate who is a fellow Mason? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234.md?page=5)