# Why is the Catholic Church against Freemasonry? Can there be peace? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234 "2005-02-28T01:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/101 "2005-03-30T15:32:38Z")
> [@Abe](#): > > Fair enough, though if you don’t mind my saying so the response looks like it’s straight out of a can. My father has been master of a number of lodges, and I know numerous people who became Freemasons, but I myself have no time for secret societies or religions. In my experience as an outsider with rather more mason contact than most, I noticed that the (or, a) primary reason people become Freemasons is for the contacts, including business contacts, “facilitating” contacts, and so forth. There was very little doubt that business was a very important part of the masonry I’ve been exposed to. Besides business, power (or the gratifying impression of power) was also very popular. It’s all about networking, I guess, with the added bonus of being autmatically given the time of day since everyone involved is a brother. > > I don’t think I have ever heard someone talking about the reasons to become a mason, beyond the contacts and opportunities that it brings. Masons are human beings and they do what human beings do. I personally have NEVER heard Masons discuss the business contacts and opportunities that might derive from being a Mason. YMMV and obviously does. Whatever your experience might have been, prospective Masons are required to swear that their purpose in joining is not one of acquiring any advantage in business. It is a relatively simple statement, short and straightforward, with no nuances; no wink-wink, nudge-nudge. If simplicity and straightforwardness seem “out of a can” then so be it. If you have heard Masons talk about business advantages and contacts being the reason they joined, they obviously lied at a critical point in the initiation process. If that is the case, they don’t deserve to be called Masons. And, if your father has been master of a “number of lodges,” he has been involved with lodges that differ sharply from those with which I am familiar. Many lodges do not allow a Mason to hold simultaneous memberships in other lodges. Some do, true, but most do not. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/102 "2005-03-30T15:45:23Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > People in the Freemasons make a lot of noise about how the principles of Freemasonry are so good. Well, that’s nice. Unfortunately, the entry into Freemasonry involves swearing an oath of secrecy, which accepts some disproportionate repercussions for breaking that secrecy. This sort of thing is rather seriously prohibited by the teachings of Christ, not to mention reason, human decency, etc. > > If Masons are so awfully interested in building a finer world, why aren’t they behaving like responsible citizens, & advocating their principles openly? > > A kind assessment would be that Masonry’s secrecy appeals to the sensibilities of a nine-year-old boy. > A cynical assessment would be that the Masons are up to some bad nastiness under the surface. > > In this case, I think the RCC has a point. The repercusions involved with violating one’s oath are simply hyperbole. I’ve never met a person who seriously believed those repercusions would, or had ever, been inforced. The hyperbole is used simply to illustrate the seriousness with which true Masons take those oaths. If you believe otherwise, then you are hopelessly naive in addition to being judgemental. You cite the teachings of Christ as if they are an irrefutable source; such is not the case. I don’t see where reason or human decency are violated; maybe you, from your position of a Non-Mason, can enlighten us misguided Masons. Masons are interested in building a better world. Hopefully, we serve as examples of the true meaning of our oaths; we act, rather than talk. Our actions are our advocacy of our guiding principles. How do we, as Masons, not behave as responsible citizens? I would honestly like to know. As to your comments re nine year old boys and “bad nastiness,” they are simply beneath contempt and don’t deserve even an attempt at refutation. If the RCC has a point, you have failed completely to illuminate it. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/103 "2005-03-30T16:00:25Z")
> [@Abe](#): > > By the way, when I said “if you don’t mind my saying so the response looks like it’s straight out of a can”, I didn’t mean to be rude, rather I wonder if this is a standard response in any way, as I have heard very similar versions from other Freemasons. I work in PR now for my sins in a former life, and one thing I’ve learned in five years is that the reason given for an action is _never_ the major reason, and quite frequently not the reason at all. For example, ‘we are doing ABC for our customers’ = "we are doing ABC for the board of directors and our shareholders’. A useful rule of thumb is reverse the given reason to find the true reason. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/104 "2005-03-30T16:09:31Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I work in PR now for my sins in a former life, and one thing I’ve learned in five years is that the reason given for an action is _never_ the major reason, and quite frequently not the reason at all. For example, ‘we are doing ABC for our customers’ = "we are doing ABC for the board of directors and our shareholders’. A useful rule of thumb is reverse the given reason to find the true reason. In other words, your experience is with liars and hypocrites. From this, you assign lieing and hypocracy to everyone. How clearly you reveal the mistakes that others have made when they are naive enough to believe that some people actually mean what they say and say what they mean. By your standards, when my darling Marcie promised to “forsake all others,” she clearly meant that immediately after our marriage ceremony was finished, she intended to embark on a life of unbridled promiscuity. It is difficult to imagine anyone being more wrong than you in their assesment of other’s honesty. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/105 "2005-03-31T02:31:29Z")
I was referring to the business milieu rather than the personal one. It’s sadly a fact of life that whether it’s Bush or Blair (let alone Hu Jin-tao!), or McDonald’s or Microsoft, or Amnesty International or various churches I could mention (but won’t), ‘line-to-takes’ are established, updated and adhered to when dealing with the media. These often tend to the type of discursive practice that I outlined. Of course, it follows from what I contend that, if true (or approaching the truth) individuals who are participants in such practices (as producer or receiver, or both) need to be alert to the danger of behaving thus in their more private spheres of life. ---
**Author:** ![WeRSauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f19dbf/32.png) [@WeRSauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeRSauron)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/106 "2005-03-31T03:44:03Z")
What about the last question of the thread’s title: can there be peace between Freemasons and the Catholic Church? WRS ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/107 "2005-03-31T03:53:08Z")
Nope. They both claim they are absolutly right. In my opinion, they best we can hope for is a creasefire. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/108 "2005-03-31T04:18:05Z")
**Sauron** , after reading this amazingly enlightening thread, I think I have to agree with **Scott** for anything like the forseeable future. I’d like to see what, if any, difference there is between being a “good, giving, community guy” and being a “good, giving, community guy and a mason.” I’m a good guy, and from what I’ve seen here share a great many of the same ideals espoused by the Masonic institution, in fact having some of the words plucked right from my brain by **LiousB** - but I’m no mason and don’t really see the point of partaking in that kind of order if it’s only there to provide it’s members reasons to get together. **LiousB** said earlier that “Masons act where others speak of acting,” or something akin, but other that seeing the big 'ol Masonic Temple two miles from my house, I’ve never seen or heard of any tangible contribution they’ve ever made to anything. Being a bunch of free-thinking and caring individuals with a lust for learning but meeting for any other reason but to help out others seems contradictory to me. I’ve never seen a Mason-run food drive, nor Mason-sponsored scholarships to architecturally-minded colleges - and these are the least “good things” I’d think they could concievable do. Now if these things do happen, it really looks like they are working in the dark and that just gives credence to those who fear what is not openly visable. AHEM!!! Sorry for having contributed to the hijack. ANd I personally think organized Churches are far too bloody thick-headed and blind to see any good thing without their own stamp on it as a good thing at all. That’s why I don’t like’em. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/109 "2005-03-31T04:20:26Z")
Crumbs. Doubly sorry to **LouisB** for misspelling your name several times. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/110 "2005-03-31T10:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > LiousB said earlier that “Masons act where others speak of acting,” or something akin, but other that seeing the big 'ol Masonic Temple two miles from my house, I’ve never seen or heard of any tangible contribution they’ve ever made to anything. If you’ve ever seen or heard of a Shrine Burn Center, you’ve seen or heard of Masonic charity. If you or a loved one ever have the misfortune to suffer severe burns and cannot afford medical treatment, the Shrine will provide free transportation to the nearest burn center, where you will receive free medical care for as long as needed. I wish Paul of Saudi would respond to this one; he is a lot more familiar with the burn centers. Masons contribute one million dollars a day, on average, to various charities. We provide scholarships to various college students; we organize blood drives; we allow other groups to use our Lodge buildings as a place to hold pancake breakfasts, dinners, etc., etc. We don’t usually ballyhoo our “official” charitable actions; if we were dependent on public contributions for our existense, you would hear more about our efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/111 "2005-03-31T14:15:53Z")
**LouisB** , I had really _suspected_ as much, but wanted to hear it from the horse’s mouth, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/112 "2005-03-31T19:14:33Z")
In post#110 above, I expressed a wish that **Paul in Saudi** would comment on the Shriner’s Burn Centers. In fact, he did so in post#77, back on page 2 of this thread. I appologize to **Paul in Saudi** for my oversight of his, as always, informative post. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/113 "2005-04-01T01:19:37Z")
Stop, you’ll make me blush! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/114 "2005-04-01T02:15:10Z")
Apparently the Catholic church is opposed to Freemasonry because it is in competition with the Knights of Columbus,. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/115 "2005-04-01T09:10:17Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > Apparently the Catholic church is opposed to Freemasonry because it is in competition with the Knights of Columbus,. Is this a joke? ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/116 "2005-04-01T10:57:10Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Masons are human beings and they do what human beings do. I personally have NEVER heard Masons discuss the business contacts and opportunities that might derive from being a Mason. YMMV and obviously does. Whatever your experience might have been, prospective Masons are required to swear that their purpose in joining is not one of acquiring any advantage in business. It is a relatively simple statement, short and straightforward, with no nuances; no wink-wink, nudge-nudge. If simplicity and straightforwardness seem “out of a can” then so be it. If you have heard Masons talk about business advantages and contacts being the reason they joined, they obviously lied at a critical point in the initiation process. If that is the case, they don’t deserve to be called Masons. If not for the “power” and “contacts” argument, if it is not a religion, I am curious to know what exactly draws people to this secret society in this day and age? After all, it’s not like reformist or free-thinking talk is prohibited in much of the world. I have heard masons not only talk about the network and advantages that come with masonry, I have actually heard several _boast_ of them. Perhaps this is, indeed, the same set of masons who do not deserve to be called Masons as you point out, however that would seem to include an awful lot of people. Clearly these would be the same puerile fools who are attracted to secret societies for precisely such reasons in the first place, nevertheless, human nature being what it is, it seems virtually impossible that members of a large secret society would actively forego opportunities for advancement of its members. Humans are extremely tribalistic, after all. I’ve also had some brushes with Masons where I now live, and it seems to me that if Masonry were indeed entirely about a better world, they could not exist within China’s borders. Yet exist they do, and I’ve even known members of the PRC Communist Party who were Masons – and members of the PRC Communist Party don’t join secret societies for the betterment of mankind, they join secret societies that will help them get ahead in their cut-throat environment! > [@](#): > > And, if your father has been master of a “number of lodges,” he has been involved with lodges that differ sharply from those with which I am familiar. Many lodges do not allow a Mason to hold simultaneous memberships in other lodges. Some do, true, but most do not. Perhaps you misunderstood. I do not know if (nor did I claim that) my father has been a master of multiple lodges simultaneously; simply that he has been a master of a number of lodges, at least three or four at last count a few years back. Definitely sequentially, but perhaps (though I don’t know, since it’s a secret) simultaneously. Here is Cecil’s take on freemasonry, where he also mentions objections from some organized religions: > [@](#): > > [What’s the story on Freemasonry?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_138.html) > > Over the years a long-winded Masonic ritual has grown up, full of cornball references to Knights of the Brazen Serpent and the like. There are also “secret” signs and handgrips, which initiates are never supposed to reveal lest they suffer a fate worse than death. (In reality, books on Masonic rituals can be found in many public libraries.) In shaking hands, for example, a Master Mason will press his thumb between the other guy’s second and third knuckles, thereby identifying himself to initiates while leaving others clueless. > > Clerical objections to Freemasonry are based in part on its quasi-religious overtones. In the ceremonies open to members of lower degree (there are 33 degrees, or ranks, in all), reference is made to the Great Architect of the Universe, whom initiates are encouraged to think of as the God of their own religion. > > If and when they climb a little farther up the ladder, however, they learn that the real name of the Great Architect is Jahbulon. According to British journalist Stephen Knight, Jahbulon is a combination of the names Jahweh; Baal, the god of the Canaanites, whom the Jews regarded as false; and Osiris, the god of the Egyptians. Ergo, Freemasons are pagans. > > This accusation shocks most Masons, few of whom take the rituals literally, at least in English-speaking countries. (French lodges reportedly are more openly atheistic.) Masonic apologists argue that Jahbulon represents a sort of primitive ecumenism. But leaders of established churches recoil at the suggestion that their conception of the godhead is no more valid than that of the golden idol crowd. > > Another (and to the nonreligious, more serious) charge made against Freemasonry is that it is a conspiratorial self-help society whose members look out for one another to the detriment of non-Masons. In some areas so many big shots belong that Masonry has become a kind of parallel Establishment, and it is widely assumed that members get first crack at jobs, preferential legal treatment (many cops and judges are “on the square,” as the Masonic saying goes), and so on. The extreme example of this is Italy’s infamous P-2 lodge, whose members included hundreds of prominent officials, some of whom traded confidential information, influenced government decisions, and pulled strings for one another. Umberto Eco once lampooned P2 in a great little essay (P x 2 = PP, sounds like pipi, or piss), and of course also wrote the brilliant _Focault’s Pendulum_, which is all about secret societies. At least that’s one intellectual who isn’t a Mason – according to some Mason claims, the majority of all persons of influence are or were Masons, and we have them to thank for civilization (!). ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/117 "2005-04-01T12:01:05Z")
Why do men join? A lot of reasons I guess. I enjoy the fact that I have brothers all over the world. As I travel a lot, I somehow feel more at home knowing that I am a member of an international fraternity. That is not to say I have ever gotten anything but a free lunch on my travels, bit the idea appeals to me. Most people (I think) like to have a place to go one night a month. It gets them out of the house. Most important to me is the idea of being a member of a movement that is ancient in its origins and liberal in its goals. Masonry has been opposed by Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Franco, that goes a long way to recommend it in my book. The Masonic virtues of Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth are important to me in my life. I am pleased to belong to a group that champions them. The idea of a worldwide brotherhood united by ideals and not divided by race, language or religion is important to me. But I have been accused of thinking too much. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/118 "2005-04-01T16:33:16Z")
The only information I can find that confirms the existence of Masonry in China is [this.](http://www.bessel.org/gls.htm) Taiwan, I submit, is not exactly the same as mainland China. Masonry is officialy banned in China, by the Chinese government, as it is in all countries under the rule of totalitarian governments. **Paul in Saudi** gave an excellent reading on why men join the Masonic Fraternity. I’ve no doubt that some Masons do treat other Masons preferentially and that preferential treatment may well extend to business relations. The fact remains that initiates swear they are not joining for purposes of advancing themselves in business. If, at the time they swear to this, their purpose in joining was to advance themselves in business, they lied when they said otherwise. I don’t doubt that men have and will lie about this, but it doesn’t make them any the less liars. As to simultaneous memberships in different lodges, I state again that most lodges with which I am familiar do not allow a Mason to hold memberships in two or more lodges at the same time. Some lodges do permit this, most don’t. If a man moves away from his home lodge and wants to become active in a new lodge, he usually drops his membership in the home lodge and becomes a member of the new lodge. If a man’s career causes him to move several times, he may well repeat the process. If this is the course pursued by your father, he might well have been Master of several Lodges. I erred in assuming he maintained his membership in his home lodge; he may or may not have done so, depending on the by-laws of the particular Lodge. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/119 "2005-04-01T16:59:18Z")
Masonicly, ‘China’ means both Taiwan and Hong Kong, and not much else. Chinese-Language Lodges also meet in Singapore and (I bet) in the US. On the other hand, I know Masonic families in China, who will rekindle Light when it is safe to do so. Not to worry, we were there when the Revolution came. We will be there when it ends. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234/120 "2005-04-01T17:11:15Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Masonicly, ‘China’ means both Taiwan and Hong Kong, and not much else. Chinese-Language Lodges also meet in Singapore and (I bet) in the US. > > On the other hand, I know Masonic families in China, who will rekindle Light when it is safe to do so. > > Not to worry, we were there when the Revolution came. We will be there when it ends. Okay, I separated Taiwan and the Mainland. I hope they don’t invade me. Even if they do, I stand corrected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-catholic-church-against-freemasonry-can-there-be-peace/292234.md?page=7)