# Why is the co-pilot critical in landing a Boeing 767? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 20, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679 "2008-11-20T18:14:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/21 "2008-11-21T05:50:38Z")
I’ve seen this in the movies a dozen times. Two pilots straining at the yokes, pulling back with all their might, veins popping, forearms knotted, as the plane dives for the ground, the earth rushing up, individual pine needles becoming visible, the sound track changing from an ascending scream to a throaty roar as the craft narrowly averts disaster. Whew! Real heart pounding action for a second there. Carry on 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/22 "2008-11-21T09:30:23Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I’d argue that explaining a non-current instrument rating as “her license for reading cockpit instruments had expired” _is_ an error. I agree, the words are ill-chosen, but the meaning is still clear. She had her pilot’s licence, she did not have the additional instruments qualification necessary. But yeah, I didn’t mean to go to bat for the sloppy journalism, just to explain what they were trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/23 "2008-11-21T11:28:31Z")
Funny. I’ve taken off and landed in the cockpit of 747s and A320s a number of times, and more than once the captain has joked about making a manual rather than automatic landing ‘for a change’. Somehow I doubt that a 767 is that different. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/24 "2008-11-21T12:07:04Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I agree, the words are ill-chosen, but the meaning is still clear. She had her pilot’s licence, she did not have the additional instruments qualification necessary. > > But yeah, I didn’t mean to go to bat for the sloppy journalism, just to explain what they were trying to say. Yeah the problem is that an instrument rating is definitely NOT a rating to “read instruments” it’s a rating to fly under the instrument flight rules. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > Nitpick: Everyone keeps referring to to the Flight Attendant as having a lapsed commercial pilot’s license. A commercial pilot’s license is real but it isn’t what most people think. That is what you need to tow banners or take people on sight-seeing trips in a small plane. Airline pilots generally need an Air Transport License. To nitpick your nitpick: An ATPL is required to be in command of an airline size aircraft but not to be the first officer. It is not uncommon for a first officer to have completed the exams for an ATPL but to not complete the rest of the requirements and gain the actual license until later. I don’t fly something the size of a B767 but even on a Dash 8 there are a couple of things that I can’t easily reach from the left seat. We don’t have flight attendants but we do have non-pilot crew and I’d be happy to use one of them to read checklists. If they had a commercial license I’d be happy to use them for checklists and radios. One of the critical things that the FA should have and that our crew have, is that they know the company checklist policy and will challenge you if you don’t give the right response to a checklist item. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/25 "2008-11-21T12:30:36Z")
I should have said “professional pilot” earlier, not “jet pilot” Somebody like **1920s Style “Death Ray”** would be just as useful as someone who flies 737s or Learjets. My apologies for the unintended slight. > [@mnemosyne](#): > > … **LSLGuy** Would the fact that the flight attendant worked for the same company (as opposed to a passenger FA from another company) make a difference in your hypothetical choice? This would have been a woman the pilot presumably knew, who would have known the same terminology, and been trained with the same CRM, etc. If she was only helping with checklists and communications, then sharing at least that much would have been very useful. As it is, the pilot stated that she _was_ helpful, and not out of place in the co-pilot’s seat, so at least it worked out well! At least at the carriers I’ve flown for, the only thing FA’s have been trained on is that they’re not allowed in the cockpit when we’re really working, as opposed to just cruising. They have zero knowledge of what goes on there. Their knowledge of “CRM” is to be assertive (repeatedly if necessary) if they think they have a problem back there which we don’t seem to accept or understand. Things may well be different at other carriers. > [@GusNSpot](#): > > Sometimes just a warm body to keep you company is a help in a stressful situation… > > With a declared emergency, I rather doubt is got too busy from a traffic and approach perspective, at least none of my declared emergency’s ever did. the poor pilots of the traffic they knew about who were being cleared out of my way were probably kinda busy but on that front I was the only one in the sky, so just the normal non broken airplane 767 approach using appropriate single pilot procedures. No need for anyone to read check lists or watch for traffic or any of that stuff as some ATR rated pilots do not need that it seems. Some can do all that and fly the airplane just fine it seems… Yep. As you well know, it isn’t that hard if you’ve been on the aircraft for a while. Decent weather, no malfuntions, no silly mistakes by an untrained FO-of-necessity & single-pilot is no big deal. > [@FRDE](#): > > Funny. > I’ve taken off and landed in the cockpit of 747s and A320s a number of times, and more than once the captain has joked about making a manual rather than automatic landing ‘for a change’. > > Somehow I doubt that a 767 is that different. There’s a whole dissertation on how non-automatic an autoland is. Autoland really ought to be called “auto touchdown”. A vast amount of non-automatic stuff has to be done by the crew along the way so HAL can handle the last 20 seconds with his usual perfection. Also, autoland is only a valid option at some airports; many are not equipped for it. Finally, in many ways, an autoland involves more, not less, work. It does have the critical advantage of letting you land when you can’t see through the low clouds, which is why it exists at all. But I’d rather do it by hand in the OPs case. Diffrent pilots from different carriers with different SOPs may have different opinions. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/26 "2008-11-21T12:37:03Z")
Geez, I’ve really stuck my foot in it this time (and expired the edit window to boot) … “Professional pilot” includes **GusNSpot** too. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/27 "2008-11-21T12:54:05Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I should have said “professional pilot” earlier, not “jet pilot” Somebody like **1920s Style “Death Ray”** would be just as useful as someone who flies 737s or Learjets. My apologies for the unintended slight. No worries, I hadn’t noticed to be honest. I don’t know if any of you follow the PPRuNe website but this incident has been discussed there and a couple of people say that their FAs are specifically trained to read checklists. It seems like it should be a simple task to read one but they are next to useless if the person doing the reading doesn’t challenge incorrect responses or prompt for a checklist to be read if the pilot-flying appears to have forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/28 "2008-11-21T13:43:10Z")
'zactly. If I’m solo, I’m gonna be busy. Having somebody haltingly screw up a checklist will waste more time than I have to spare. I have plenty of experience both reading & responding, and have the discipline to do it. This would be one occasion where dotting the t’s and crossing the i’s would be uber-important. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/29 "2008-11-21T13:52:38Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > I didn’t mean to go to bat for the sloppy journalism, just to explain what they were trying to say. It occurs to me that the sloppy journalism might possibly be due to mishearing the words “instrument rating” as “instrument reading”. This would require a reporter who knows very little about the subject being reported, but there are plenty of those. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/30 "2008-11-21T16:59:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I suspect that this person’s medical will be yanked until it is vetted. It’s easily a career killer. A _career_ killer? What about a passenger killer? ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/31 "2008-11-21T17:12:57Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > But yeah, I didn’t mean to go to bat for the sloppy journalism, just to explain what they were trying to say. Lest I be thought a complete fool, I must point out that I speculated the reference to an instrument rating (using those words) when I raised the question in post #2. 😉 I may still be a complete fool, though… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679/32 "2008-11-21T17:25:46Z")
> [@CC](#): > > A _career_ killer? > What about a passenger killer? That’s a given and I was being polite. Having a mental breakdown means he will loose his medical. Not only will he not be able to fly professionally but he will not be able to fly privately. He’s done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-co-pilot-critical-in-landing-a-boeing-767/473679.md?page=1)