# Why is the Cross Worshipped? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825 "2013-06-01T00:37:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Norma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/d78d45/32.png) [@Norma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Norma)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/61 "2013-06-03T23:47:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It would be interesting to see the title of this book to which authority you appeal. Jerome wrote copious letters, many of them personal, so I could see him discussing his works in those. However, I have never seen any indication that he wrote a diary or a journal and he certainly did not write an autobiography. > > Now, if you are quoting someone with an agenda, you may be unaware that Jerome translated pretty much the entire bible into Latin. To the best of his abilities, he used the original Greek (New Testament) and Hebrew (Hebrew scriptures) although there may have been a couple of books that he translated from the Septuagint or failed to translate. > If you find comments by Jerome regarding how he prepared the scriptures, that Latin translation is almost certainly what he was describing. > > Even if he did claim to have “compiled” the New Testament, (whatever he meant by that statement), we could ignore such a claim. As I noted, we already have evidence from multiple sources from earlier years that the present the New Testament in its current form existed before he was born. > > _meh_ > The Authorized Version was a good attempt for the time. However for the New Testament it relied on the _textus receptus_ that has been demonstrated to contain errors. Similarly, the sources of the Hebrew scriptures are not as clean as one would wish. Claims that later translations are more corrupt are nothing more than wishful thinking from small groups of conservative Christians of the early 20th century. > > This is excellent advice that you should ponder when you rely on sources that provide you with historical errors. He did discuss them in his letters and diaries and I have researched them (the unaltered ones). He wrote why he translated what he did into Latin as well. It was because the Jews were highly critical of his alterations to the Septuagint which he translated from the Greek version because he could not read Hebrew. All the references for my research are on my sites. [http://www.squidoo.com/romanemperorconstantine](http://www.squidoo.com/romanemperorconstantine) [http://www.squidoo.com/who-wrote-the-new-testament](http://www.squidoo.com/who-wrote-the-new-testament) You might also like some background into my spirituality and reincarnation as well. [http://www.squidoo.com/mkyspirituality](http://www.squidoo.com/mkyspirituality) Before you put me down for what I know is true and not because someone has told me or I read it then you should read these pages. There is a lot of support and evidence for what I have said here. It is only a little while ago that evolution was banned by the CC because it is not mentioned in the bible. So too were native people considered animals for the same reason. It’s time the world woke up to the ignorance that propels religions and to the misguided information that floats around and which hurts a lot of people. It’s leaders still claim that condoms spread aids and that people should continue to have as many children as possible. That is even in the face of massive overpopulation that is driving us to the brink. People are fleeing overcrowded countries and wars are being fought as they target each other. This situation will worsen as populations continue to increase and resources become scarcer. If your JC existed and died to save the world then why is it being torn apart and why are we all facing extinction because of what he supposedly preached? No one answered my questions about a virgin birth or other things mentioned above because I don’t believe you have answers. Isn’t it time, therefore, that they become available? Perhaps someone can answer this question. If heaven and hell exist where are they? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/62 "2013-06-04T00:07:46Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > No one answered my questions about a virgin birth or other things mentioned above because I don’t believe you have answers. Isn’t it time, therefore, that they become available? > > Perhaps someone can answer this question. If heaven and hell exist where are they? Nobody in this thread is trying to argue for the _objective_ truth of Christian doctrine as material, verifiable fact, so you’re fighting a straw man there. All we’re doing is pointing out the errors in your misrepresentations of Christian doctrine (and other subjects), such as the false assertion that Christians “worship” the cross symbol. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/63 "2013-06-04T00:45:15Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > It is only a little while ago that evolution was banned by the CC because it is not mentioned in the bible. So too were native people considered animals for the same reason. The Catholic Church didn’t ban evolution, and it didn’t declare that native people were animals. To the contrary, the papal bull _Sublimus Dei_ condemns the view that Native Americans were animals or Satanic, saying: > [@](#): > > We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it. Desiring to provide ample remedy for these evils, We define and declare by these Our letters, or by any translation thereof signed by any notary public and sealed with the seal of any ecclesiastical dignitary, to which the same credit shall be given as to the originals, that, notwithstanding whatever may have been or may be said to the contrary, the said Indians and all other people who may later be discovered by Christians, are by no means to be deprived of their liberty or the possession of their property, even though they be outside the faith of Jesus Christ; and that they may and should, freely and legitimately, enjoy their liberty and the possession of their property; nor should they be in any way enslaved; should the contrary happen, it shall be null and have no effect. A lot of your information about Constantine is just wrong. If you want, I can go into it with you, but I don’t know if you want to listen. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/64 "2013-06-04T01:13:19Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > It is only a little while ago that evolution was banned by the CC because it is not mentioned in the bible. [False.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/65 "2013-06-04T01:53:51Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > He did discuss them in his letters and diaries and I have researched them (the unaltered ones). He wrote why he translated what he did into Latin as well. It was because the Jews were highly critical of his alterations to the Septuagint which he translated from the Greek version because he could not read Hebrew. Which is all very well, but has nothing to do with compiling the New Testament which existed in very close to its current form 177 years before he was born. > [@Norma](#): > > All the references for my research are on my sites. > [http://www.squidoo.com/romanemperorconstantine](http://www.squidoo.com/romanemperorconstantine) > [http://www.squidoo.com/who-wrote-the-new-testament](http://www.squidoo.com/who-wrote-the-new-testament) Neither of these sites are credible. They read, pretty much, like they were borrowed from the Moody Bible Institue and then reshaped for use by a New Age religion. The church was long established before Constantine came along. Even if one chooses to believe that Paul of Tarsus and the church leaders with whom he had fights were imaginary, we have a long tradition of people from whom we have consistent writings about the church, including its structure and beliefs: Polycarp, Papias, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Pantænus, Dionysius Of Alexandria, Epiphanius, Origen, Cyprian of Carthage, Eusebius Pamphili, Bishop of Cæsarea, and others. Every one of them contributed commentary and descriptions about the church, beginning in the late first century, and their commentaries are consistent with each other. The tripe that squidoo posts about the Council of Nicaea is pretty much made up out of whole cloth. It claims, for example that “Arias” (Arius misspelled), was murdered during the council, even though he lived for another 11 years after it ended. The notion that Constantine “created” a church that had over 250 years of history is nothing but uninformed speculation by people who have not spent enough effort actually studying the events. Similarly, its claims about the “creation” of the New testament are absurd. I have already pointed out the rather silly error that tries to link “Christ” to “Krishna.” (And where in the writings of Plato is he supposed to have invoked the name Krishna?) It makes numerous similar dumb errors, claiming that the month of March comes from the initials Ma-R-X meaning, according to squidoo, “mother’s powerful cross” when the name actually was taken from the Roman god Mars and was in use long before the claims of squidoo. (It is also amusing to watch the “scholar” who created squidoo inventing lots of nonsense origins for words, then describing their “entomology.” I agree that the author’s word tricks have a few bugs in them.) > [@Norma](#): > > Before you put me down for what I know is true and not because someone has told me or I read it then you should read these pages. There is a lot of support and evidence for what I have said here. I would not put you down. I feel sorry for you for being misled by someone who is really out of touch with reality. > [@Norma](#): > > It is only a little while ago that evolution was banned by the CC because it is not mentioned in the bible. So too were native people considered animals for the same reason. Neither of these statements is true. Darwin’s works were never placed on the _Index Librorum Prohibitorum_ and Darwin was never condemned by the church. There is no statement by the church that any human was regarded as a lower animal. If you are going to post nonsense that can easily be researched and rejected, you will win no points, here. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/66 "2013-06-04T02:01:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Darwin’s works were never placed on the _Index Librorum Prohibitorum_ and Darwin was never condemned by the church. One of Erasmus Darwin’s books was, though. I’ve read one study of the Index that says that after the black eye the Church got after the Galileo trial, the people who maintained the Index narrowed their focus, and pretty much only restricted themselves to books on philosophy, theology, and religious history. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/67 "2013-06-04T02:22:30Z")
> [@PBear42](#): > > I’ve read the thread also, twice. I’m at a loss to understand your point. That the cross is venerated, respected and taken as a symbol of power by Christians is obvious - and I’m an atheist - but worshiped, no. If you think otherwise, you don’t know what the word means. If you think _worship_ isn’t the only word here the OP doesn’t know the meanning of, well, let’s say reading the thread twice wasn’t enough. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/68 "2013-06-04T02:38:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > One of Erasmus Darwin’s books was, though. I’ve read one study of the Index that says that after the black eye the Church got after the Galileo trial, the people who maintained the Index narrowed their focus, and pretty much only restricted themselves to books on philosophy, theology, and religious history. The claim to which I was responding was > [@](#): > > It is only a little while ago that evolution was banned by the CC because it is not mentioned in the bible. Given this poster’s “familiarity” with facts, it would be pretty difficult to demonstrate that the statement was false, but a reference to the Index could be easily provided. I could also have pointed to entries in the 1919 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia that demonstrate that evolution was not “banned” at that time, but who knows how long ago “a little while” is supposed to be–94 years might not have cut it. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/69 "2013-06-04T04:16:49Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > All the references for my research are on my sites. > [http://www.squidoo.com/romanemperorconstantine](http://www.squidoo.com/romanemperorconstantine) > [http://www.squidoo.com/who-wrote-the-new-testament](http://www.squidoo.com/who-wrote-the-new-testament) > > You might also like some background into my spirituality and reincarnation as well. > [http://www.squidoo.com/mkyspirituality](http://www.squidoo.com/mkyspirituality) I’ve read plenty of Bible scholars, most of them agnostic or atheist. You, madam, are no Bible scholar. The problem with self-publication, and I see you’ve written several books and hundreds of articles, is that there’s no peer review and no editorial filter. (BTW, notice tomndebb that the OP wrote these articles, rather than being mislead by them. And, yes, Monty, misunderstanding the meaning of worship is only one of the OP’s failings.) No doubt you believe what you say, but since you give almost no cites, your work has little credibility. And I say this as an atheist. Perhaps there are a few kernels of truth in your writings, but the errors are so numerous and broad that, frankly, it’s not worth my time to find the kernels. As a witnessing thread, I mark this a fail. Finally, I should like to mention that advocating a world view (reincarnation) most folks regard as crazy or marginal is no evidence of validity. As Cecil Adams (the syndicated columnist whose work is the basis of this board) likes to say, just because it’s bullshit doesn’t mean it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/70 "2013-06-04T04:27:19Z")
I know. That was just an aside on my part. The Catholic Church and the evolution question is actually fairly complicated, and not really all that easy to sum up on a message board, but theistic evolution was never outright rejected. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/71 "2013-06-04T05:44:53Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > The symbol comes from the ancient sun sign and it was used as a weapon of terror and execution by Roman Emperors, including Constantine who established the Catholic Church. He tortured, maimed and killed all who would not worship it and his edicts to this effect have survived. The cross was then used by Hitler who used Constantine as his mentor. Again it was on weapons of murder and torture as he raided, plundered, and devastated countries and the forces of many countries. > > Far from being a symbol representing God it represents nothing but horror to those who were tortured, murdered and so forth by dictators who used it for power and control. > > You can read more here > [http://www.squidoo.com/emperor-constantine-as-hitlers-role-model](http://www.squidoo.com/emperor-constantine-as-hitlers-role-model) There is a kernel of truth here. But your interpretation is just garbled. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > Not to mention that the sign Constantine used was the [Chi Ro](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Ro), not the cross. At least, that’s how I remember it. Correct. What Constantine did was take two (maybe vying) Christian symbols, the staurogram and the IX monogram and combine them into one. But that is not all. Put in a victory wreath it also closely resembles the sunwheel, a warrior symbol among the Celts and Germans. There are representations of Taranis the thunder/war god of the Celts) holding a six spoked wheel and in germanic art a four spoked wheel is often used. Constantine’s Celtic and Germanic soldiers would have had no problem at all painting a sunwheel on their shield. they just needed to add a curly bit to the top spoke to make the Rho. > [@Miller](#): > > Is the OP saying that the swastika is the Christian cross? So, yeah, the swastika being one form of the subwheel, this would be semi~correct. Of course, the nazis would be harking back to its Indo European origin. Not to the Chi Rho ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/72 "2013-06-04T06:12:46Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > He did discuss them in his letters and diaries and I have researched them (_the unaltered ones_). He wrote why he translated what he did into Latin as well. It was because the Jews were highly critical of his alterations to the Septuagint which he translated from the Greek version because he could not read Hebrew. [emphasis added] Which only makes your failure to provide adequate citations all the more ridiculous. Editions of Jerome’s works are numerous and widely available, not just in ‘National Libraries’. Quite a few of them can now even be found online. So there is no excuse for you not to be able to provide precise references to specific passages. But if you want to claim that some versions of Jerome’s works are better than others - that they are ‘unaltered’ - then it is even more important that you indicate which are the versions that you consider to be better. If you know what you’re talking about, you should have no difficulty in providing that information. Not providing that information does therefore tend to give the impression that you don’t know what you’re talking about. > [@Norma](#): > > All the references for my research are on my sites. > [http://www.squidoo.com/romanemperorconstantine](http://www.squidoo.com/romanemperorconstantine) > [http://www.squidoo.com/who-wrote-the-new-testament](http://www.squidoo.com/who-wrote-the-new-testament) Which only confirm that you seem not to have grasped that the purpose of citations is to make it as easy as possible for your readers to check what you are claiming. It is almost as if you don’t want them to do so. (Hint: giving actual book titles would be a start.) ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/73 "2013-06-04T06:19:49Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Constantine’s Celtic and Germanic soldiers would have had no problem at all painting a sunwheel on their shield. they just needed to add a curly bit to the top spoke to make the Rho. Just to add to this. Constantine´s power base, in this civil war, was the Western part of the Empire. Consisting of Britain, Gaul, Spain and the german provinces. So quite a considerable proportion of his army would have been Celts and Germanics. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/74 "2013-06-04T11:28:03Z")
Well, now I’m just going have to renounce my Church and my faith because of what one person “remembers” from past lives (or intercarnation periods). Thank you. Norma. I feel much greater freedom now. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/75 "2013-06-04T12:14:12Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > Revelation 13: 13-18 states that Constantine invented Jesus Christ and that he forced everyone to worship the image or be killed. Constantine invented Jesus Christ? Are you on drugs? This is coming from an atheist, btw. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/76 "2013-06-04T12:16:01Z")
> [@GiantRat](#): > > So why does it seem to be such a sticking point for you? I was raised Catholic, but always understood that it was symbolic - I had the mass (sans weekly sermon) memorized, and figured it was better for me to go see the world than perform recitations. I knew what the Cross was and what it meant. It’s not something to be “worshiped,” which would be idolatry, but a reminder of Jesus’ suffering, the suffering we undergo in our lives, and his ultimate faith in salvation (notwithstanding the “eloi” statements in Matthew and Mark, which… y’know… Jesus was human, and being tortured; cut the guy some slack unless you’ve been crucified, yourself). > > Catholics don’t worship the Cross. Period. It’s a symbol. Think of it as a tattoo. As previously mentioned, it’s like the Star of David. Or any other symbol that provides a sense of commonality to a group. > > I’ve got an American flag, a Freemason’s flag, and a great big NY Giants logo in my place, right alongside other symbols that are important to me. I don’t call any of them God. They’re reminders and provide visitors the understanding of things that I care about - they’re conversation starters, in that regard. > > At the expense of rambling (which I am) the First Commandment involves worshiping no false idols (that whole “I am the Lord thy God… no false idols,” etc. part). So… no. Cross worship, or worship of any idol, is not part of the faith. And the snake-handlers (I’m certainly not one - snakes scare the heck out of me) aren’t worshiping snakes - they’re demonstrating faith that the symbolic representation of Satan can’t hurt them if they have faith. And people who do fire-walks are doing similar. And parachutists (although that’s more a faith in physics). > > If you don’t agree with someone’s beliefs, just leave it alone. I guess, in my opinion, St. Anselm summed it up best by saying that “God is that thing than which nothing greater can be conceived”; an idea, that some of us feel that we feel. If you don’t, well, then… don’t. > > As a final thought (as I ramble), as a previously self-described agnostic who has thought about things much more since then, I think that the atheistic/agnostic thing is often grown out of a sense of rebellion (we all have it in us) and uncertainty. Religion is, no doubt, in place to establish behavioral norms for harmony in society and unity in conflicts. But the degree of consistency across religions, and common morals across cultures, speaks to something bigger. I’ve found atheism (no offense to anyone) to be BS - you can’t have faith in nothing (IMHO); agnosticism, I’m sympathetic with. This is what Kierkegaard was talking about with the “leap of faith” - basically saying “screw it - I’ll buy into it and hope I’m right” (kind of like getting married, eh?). > > I think you’ve got a well-informed group of folks on this thread. People are touchy about their faith, whether they be atheist, agnostic, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever. Tread heavily enough to fight ignorance, lightly enough not to alienate. It is not a sticking point with me, Everyone has the right to their own beliefs and I try to look at the posts and see if they can teach me anything. I learn a lot from the posters and if I see something told as fact I would like to have proof of it. Truth is more important to me than faith alone. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/77 "2013-06-04T12:23:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Which is all very well, but has nothing to do with compiling the New Testament which existed in very close to its current form 177 years before he was born. > > Neither of these sites are credible. > They read, pretty much, like they were borrowed from the Moody Bible Institue and then reshaped for use by a New Age religion. > The church was long established before Constantine came along. Even if one chooses to believe that Paul of Tarsus and the church leaders with whom he had fights were imaginary, we have a long tradition of people from whom we have consistent writings about the church, including its structure and beliefs: Polycarp, Papias, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Pantænus, Dionysius Of Alexandria, Epiphanius, Origen, Cyprian of Carthage, Eusebius Pamphili, Bishop of Cæsarea, and others. Every one of them contributed commentary and descriptions about the church, beginning in the late first century, and their commentaries are consistent with each other. > The tripe that squidoo posts about the Council of Nicaea is pretty much made up out of whole cloth. It claims, for example that “Arias” (Arius misspelled), was murdered during the council, even though he lived for another 11 years after it ended. > The notion that Constantine “created” a church that had over 250 years of history is nothing but uninformed speculation by people who have not spent enough effort actually studying the events. > Similarly, its claims about the “creation” of the New testament are absurd. I have already pointed out the rather silly error that tries to link “Christ” to “Krishna.” (And where in the writings of Plato is he supposed to have invoked the name Krishna?) It makes numerous similar dumb errors, claiming that the month of March comes from the initials Ma-R-X meaning, according to squidoo, “mother’s powerful cross” when the name actually was taken from the Roman god Mars and was in use long before the claims of squidoo. (It is also amusing to watch the “scholar” who created squidoo inventing lots of nonsense origins for words, then describing their “entomology.” I agree that the author’s word tricks have a few bugs in them.) > > I would not put you down. I feel sorry for you for being misled by someone who is really out of touch with reality. > > Neither of these statements is true. Darwin’s works were never placed on the _Index Librorum Prohibitorum_ and Darwin was never condemned by the church. There is no statement by the church that any human was regarded as a lower animal. If you are going to post nonsense that can easily be researched and rejected, you will win no points, here. The Roman Christian church did exist before Constantine but it was not yet Universal (Catholic) that was decided later. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/78 "2013-06-04T13:05:43Z")
Norma, you words amaze me with their hostility, defensiveness, and close-mindedness. In a debate, one can expect to hear other viewpoints. You seem to see this differences as a personal attack on you. Most of the reponses that have been given to you are well-documented and fair. They’ve been educational to me – and I studied courses in the Bible in college, though I’m certainly no Biblical scholar. Not all Christians believe in the Virgin Birth. Other Christians believe that the Virgin Birth was a miracle. The freedom to decide for oneself is one of the things that I like about Christianity. Generally, Christians are not brow-beaten by evil church leaders who want to hide things from them. My minister is a very relaxed person who has been known to have a beer or two when he plays pool in someone’s home. And he went out of his way to be present just before my lung cancer surgery. He held my hand, said a beautiful prayer, and put me at ease. His sermons are eloquent and encouraging and his wit is charming. We never “worship” any object in our church. My father and I both believe in the possibility of Reincarnation. We came to that conclusion without consulting with each other until he was elderly. I believe that Mark Twain also believed in Reincarnation as have many people that I think have good sense. But they don’t usually try to beat anyone over the head with it in my experience. I do believe in the Holy Spirit and I think there is something in the Bible that suggests that he was with God before the last of the Trinity was born. In my life, when I listen, he is a guide for _me_. His teachings for others may not be quite the same. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/79 "2013-06-04T14:56:21Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > To begin with I have full memory of my reincarnation. I was a man in my last life and with that experience can assure you there is no heaven or hell, no devil, angels or saints and that your concept of the Divine is totally governed by religious spin and camouflage. There is none so blind as those who cannot see or deaf than those who cannot hear. Whoa. We haven’t had an opportunity like _this_ for a while… I don’t want to risk your eyesight, so I’ll be circumspect. Was Tiresias right? ---
**Author:** ![Oldeb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ea666f/32.png) [@Oldeb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oldeb)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825/80 "2013-06-04T17:20:54Z")
> [@Norma](#): > > There is a lot in OT prophecies you would do well to examine but get yourselves a King James bible which has not been altered and contaminated by religious clones. Out of morbid curiosity, what is an altered KJV bible? Any other English translation? Wouldn’t reading an “unaltered” version of the Old Testament require ancient Hebrew? And why is it the more, um, “unorthodox” interpretations of Christianity always seem to rely on the KJV? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-cross-worshipped/659825.md?page=5)