Why is the depiction of death discouraged in US children's programming?

…this is a bit of a hijack, but did anyone else ever get annoyed at the lack of cartoon deaths while they were kids? I sure did, I always thought the producers were taking a moral cop-out.

Plus the fact that the “no deaths” policy completely defangs a lot of superhero-type characters. I mean, why even bother stocking your Super-Team with people who carry swords or adamantium claws, if the only guy you can actually let attack the enemy is the fella with the baton?

One of the worst examples of this came in an episode of “X-Men: Evolution” when…

[spoiler] …A flashback reveals an early meeting of Wolverine and Captain America, during World War II, where they’re sent to liberate a ‘POW Camp,’ that contains a suspicious amount of women and children (Including a young Magneto.

'Cap and Logan succeed in their mission, without killing any of the Germans.

So, it’s not even ‘OK’ for the heros to kill NAZIS who were running a CONCENTRATION CAMP! Pardon my french, but WTF? Call me naive, but I would have thought that of all the foes a hero could POSSIBLY go up against, Death-Camp Nazis would be the ones who it would always be completely OK to kill!

gah…

[/spoiler]

Wasn’t always the case. Bambi’s mother died, so did loads of people on the original American release of Gachaman, (Battle of the Planets, I think) though mostly not onscreen. Still cut, (most humorously the parts with swan-girl killing people with her bladed yoyo, then doing tricks with it) there was death and blowing up buildings and cities had consequences, even without showing blood.

It was in the 80s that this became more or less mandatory. (Note later, death-free re-release of the same show as G-Force) Possibly as sort of a pre-emptive backlash to the less cartoony kidshows that were showing up in the mid-80s. (He-Man, Robotech, GI Joe, Transformers and the like)

More likely, though it was a result of a combination of a typical 80’s obsession with perception and image. The companies, particularly the TV stations and the sponsors that made the shows wanted to look purer than pure, so anything even vaguely negative or antisocial got cut short. Wasn’t the mid to late 80s the era of constant ‘viewer boycotting’ of stations that offended them? Blaming the media for all social wrongs was a popular hobby at the time, even moreso than today, and people who are involved with kids have always been paranoid about their reputations. Thus, content-free kid shows, and PG-13.

It’s not really that different from the way the Comics Code got there years earlier. Self censorship can be really hard habit to break, especially when the people enforcing it are distant from, and not answerable to, the people actually making the shows.

As Carter the Great mentioned, much of the anime shown on American TV was meant for adolescents or young adults. A fair amount of it, including much of the weirder stuff, is meant largely for geeks specifically, who have notably more exotic tastes in entertainment than ‘mainstream’ audiences. Until recently, though, anything that was animated was pretty much by definition for kids or a sitcom, though, so of course it’s going to look weird when they start kissing with tongue.

Again, the ‘comic code’ is a fair analogy. The average age of comic book readers is something like 25, and has been for years. A demographic that’s traditionally fond of decapitations and nipples, though hopefully not at the same time. But because that’s not the common understanding of what ‘funny books’ are, (and also because the comics industry did a fairly poor job of distinguishing between what books were for whom) the whole industry sort of froze in a confused ‘I’m no longer a boy, but not yet a man’ state, not really able to market effectively to either demographic.

Though that has little or no bearing on the question at hand. I don’t even know why I brought it up. Video Games are caught in a similar bind at the moment, though they make a lot more money, so the industry has a lot more muscle. ANYway . . .

The weird thing is, there ARE animated ‘kid shows’ in Japan, but instead of bringing THAT stuff over, until very recently they’d bring over the young adult shows and try to stuff them into completely inappropriate markets. I’m not sure if they were trying to capture both the youth and college markets, (which worked for a while) or if they didn’t want to compete directly with the domestic shows, or both.

Possibly this was simply an extension to turning the pre-movie cartoons of the 50’s, intended for mixed audiences with a fair amount of adult, and frequent sexual humor, into the standard entertainment for kids of the 70s and 80s.

If nothing else, though, it did clearly point out just how ritualized and goofy cartoon standards were. I’ve always found it a bit odd that violence and sadism (Tom&Jerry?) are fine, as long as you separate them completely from any kind of consequences.

Tranzor Z: Viewed objectively, breast-launching is only moderately weirder than shooting off hands or (in the case of one memorable robot from the same show) heads. Besides, Getter-Robo was put together by Go Nagai, so you have to expect a little of this kind of thing. :slight_smile:

If you’re really curious about non-Japanese fucked up popular culture, though, do a search for ‘Fumetti Comics.’ I’m sure you’ll find more than two. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.

Sorry if none of this made sense. I haven’t slept. :slight_smile:


‘Something else created by Satan. Japanimation!’

I respectfully disagree with Carter the Great’s and Ura-Maru’s statement that much of the anime brought over here is for teenagers, at least the anime before, say, the late Nineties. Series like Gatchaman, DBZ, Mazinger Z, and Gundam were all accompanied with merchandise squarely aimed at children: action figures, die-casts, sing-along records, wind-ups, plastic dress-up accessories like “transformation belts,” books made out of thick cardboard that are easy for children’s fingers to manipulate and that are written all in kana (the “simple” syllabic alphabet, as opposed to the couple thousand Chinese characters required for true literacy). When I watch tapes of kids’ broadcasts from Japan, the zillions of commercials for DBZ swag star preteen boys. I’m not saying anything goes on Japanese children’s TV and, as Ura-Maru notes, there are kiddie shows. But the acceptable age for viewing TV violence and death seems to be higher in the US.

I’m not a sociology expert or anything, but wouldn’t this have to more to do with cultural attitudes and the traditional treatment of women in Japan? A country where it is still commonly perceived that women invite their own rapes?

I managed to get my hands on a copy of the original Mazinger Z (Tranzor Z) manga, which AFAIK was originally written with a preteen male audience in mind. I was interested in it because I had found the anime boring, and was curious as to how the big guy had become such a pop culture icon. After reading the manga, I believe I can safely say that Nagai was too extreme for even Japanese children’s TV at the time.

Jesus.

Naked Sayaka. Naked Koji joy! Headless Nazi-style villain stringing Sayaka up in her bra and panties and making his robot minions molest her nubile flesh – and Koji drooling over the sight! Evil goon soldiers with whole tops of their skulls cut off to expose their pulsing brains and naked eyeballs! Incredibly gory decapitations! Nude guest appearances by Jubei-chan, star of Nagai’s Shameless High School!

…My God, it’s great! :smiley:

That reminds me… What demographic was the original Cutey Honey anime marketed to, anyway? Honey was designed around the play fantasies of female children. She was a fighting android who could transform into a moto racer, photographer, fashion model, rock star, etc. – basically what little girls wanted to grow up to be. But of course SHE HAD TO GET NAKED TO TRANSFORM!

Guilt washes over me every time I whip out my tape to watch it. Kick-ass android heroine! Yay! Compassionate and just! She’s Sailor Moon with balls! She can be anything! BUT SHE HAS TO GET NAKED TO DO IT!

Shrugging my shoulders here… like I said… I could be wrong.

I said the anime brought over here from Japan is aimed at American kids… but in Japan those same shows were meant for older kids. I would still argue that those shows are aimed at older kids in Japan regardless if they have toy tie-ins. We sell action figures based on Jason and Freddy and Clive Barker’s Tortured Souls in KB Toys. Does that mean it’s FOR kids… I’m sure a fat man chained up with his belly slit open and guts and mucus pouring out IS cool for a kid to see hanging next to the Power Rangers on the toy shelf. No one I’ve talked to that has above a passing knowledge of anime or animation or Japanese pop culture has said DBZ or Gundam was meant for kids Japanese or American.

Point taken regarding “intended” and “real life” audiences, though I feel the analogy using the Jason dolls isn’t quite fair. Those are based on material not meant for viewing by children under any circumstance, and they’re likely being marketed toward teen and grown-up horror buffs/collectors. DBZ and Gundam have cross-age appeal, which is indicated by the existence of genuine kiddie merchandise. I do have a Japanese book called Zutto Anime Ga Suki Datta (“I’ve Always Loved Anime”), which polled a bunch of fans who grew up during the golden age of anime for the fifty best shows. The book, published in 1993, includes comments from the fans’ kids (one of whom describes Gatchaman as “boring and lame” :))and asks them what current series they like. DBZ is consistently named by the children, who are 1st to 5th graders.

The acknowledgment that young children are also watching these shows does not stop violence and death from being portrayed in them. In the US, the depiction of violence and death IS strictly regulated in many cartoons, no matter how old the target audience is. As Joel notes, things are changing, though.

By the way, the favorite show of the 5th grade kid who called Gatchaman lame was Hokuto no Ken, the king of violent cartoons.

We shield the children too much. Ever notice whenever a schoolkid dies, the TV news always says “counselors will be at the school tomorrow…” We keep death away from the kids and when it comes too close to home, they can’t handle it.

I think that’s because it can be pretty traumatic when a school mate dies. Most of us don’t expect a 14 year old to die.

Marc

Ahem.

Hey, everybody! Duke’s going to be okay!

Y’all know the backstory on that one, right?

I think some kid out in Minnesota hit his kid sister with a hammer or something back in the late 70s.

give it a rest already:rolleyes:

Most of us don’t expect anyone to die.

Nowadays, the vast majority of people die at an advanced age following a long illness, and when it comes it is anticipated, in fact, expected. Death is not something that the average person encounters very often.

This is a huge difference from a century ago. At that time, families made regular trips to the cemetary to bury infants. People of all ages died of various diseases (think consumption) and infections (think blood poisoning (gangrene)) fairly regularly. Death was a common part of life.

Basically, we have gotten bad at dealing with death, because we don’t have a whole lot of practice at it.

While I’m eating crow here, I should also admit that I just re-read my copy of Mazinger Z and learned it was originally published in Shonen Jump, which means it was targeted at boys twelve and up. The anime has a more juvenile feel to it.

Well put, Brother Cadfael. Infant mortality and child mortality have dropped to a point where most children don’t go through the experience of a schoolmate dying. But does the viewing of death in television prepare a child for the real thing? That’s debatable. If we accept that viewing violence desensitizes children to violence, then it follows that viewing death would make them desensitized to death.

MSU –

Death in the abstract, perhaps, but death in the concrete, here-and-now, never ever going to see him again sense? I doubt it.

I take it you did not have the experience of being 5 years old and going to see the Transformers movie, where they killed off Optimus Prime. My friends and I were totally freaked out, as were many of other Transformers fans (and their parents). The outrage over this forced them to do the “Return of Optimus Prime” 2-parter on the TV show, and also forced them to change the G.I. Joe movie. Originally, Duke was supposed to die, but they redid some lines to indicate that he survived after the Optimus Prime backlash.

All the psyco BS aside, while it may be true that some youth are influenced…etc. The reason (IMHO) that children’s programs are screened/censored as much as they are is to avoid lawsuits. Plain and simple…little Johnny stabbed Sally because he saw it on TV. Well there’s another multi million dollar settlement against entertainment…and psych will concur as evidence.

No it’d be more profitable in the long run to just censor the crap. I doubt the mega $$$ folks in Hollywood really give a shit about what Junior does. (As long as its not their Jr.)

Well, that’s not entirely true…

The backlash caused them to NOT kill Duke in the GI JOE Movie…but it didn’t have anything really to do with them brining him back.
They brought him back because he was the MOST popular character.

Actually, it is the exact opposite. Japan is even MORE strict in censorship of graphic sex than the US. The icky tentacle type stuff only came about because, strangely enough, it was a way to get around the censors. I believe the basic issue is that they weren’t allowed to show genitals, so they had to use tentacles instead.

It is another example of what happens when you ban something that is natural. You end up messing people up and pushing them into something worse. But still, it isn’t that popular in Japan, and the vast majority of people in Japan would hardly consider it appropriate.

No, they still killed him in the movie. However, at the end, they added some badly dubbed lines. Namely; “Hey, everybody! Duke’s going to be okay!” (Possibly alright.)

Why? A question was asked I answered it? What’s the CNN war coverage but Coyote v Roadrunner for adults?

Yeah, I remember that. That chump Rodimus was a pretty sorry replacement.