# Why is the F-117 not the F-19, or F-21, or something? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 10, 2001, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558 "2001-10-10T12:47:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/1 "2001-10-10T12:47:25Z")
Back in the day, U.S. fighter planes were designated by P-(number,) e.g. the P-38, P-47 and P-51 of WWII fame. god knows why. But then they started being called the F-(number) such as the F-86 Sabre, F-100 Super Sabre, F-101 Voodoo, etc. But eventually I guess they got tired of high numbers and went back to zero, so at some point F-numbers seem to have started over. F-4 Phantom F-5 Tiger/Freedom Fighter F-8 Crusader F-14 Tomcat F-15 Eagle F-16 Falcon F-18 Hornet F-20 Tigershark F-22 Raptor So why is the F-117 Stealth Fighter the F-117? Why not F-19, or F-21, or F-17? ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/2 "2001-10-10T13:05:12Z")
Wasn’t the F-21 the IAI Kfir, used for aggressor training? I have heard that the F-11x numbers were used for captured Russian aircraft used in aggressor training, and that F-117 was selected for the stealth fighter to deflect public attention. Everyone seemed to have made up their minds that it was the F-19 and that it looked a certain way, so I imagine reference to an F-117 wouldn’t draw so much attention. Mind you, I have no cites to back this up. ---
**Author:** ![Kilt-wearin\_man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kilt-wearin\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilt-wearin_man)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/3 "2001-10-10T13:25:56Z")
For the F-117, they went back to the older numbering system that had been abandoned in the '60s because the numbers were getting so damned high…the F-111 being the last of these designations. Unfortunately, the current generation of fighters (starting with the F-4 Phantom II) doesn’t quite fit into the available spaces in this numbering scheme…so I suspect the Pentagon merely got annoyed by the press labeling it the “F-19” and designated it the F-117 just to thumb their noses at the know-it-alls. This would explain why the F-117 is the only break in the current pattern. BTW - the F-17 Cobra was a failed Northrop prototype that was purchased by McDonnel-Douglas, redesigned and improved, and became the F-18 Hornet. Crusoe is right about the Kfir being the F-21 and a limited number being used for Aggressor training. I’ve never heard of F-11x numbers being used for captured Russian aircraft…that would seem to be a greater source of confusion than just giving them callsigns. “P” was for “Pursuit”, but nobody called 'em “Pursuit Planes” so the powers-that-be changed the designation in the very late '40s to “F” for “Fighter”. It was at this point that the P-51 (still in service at the time) became the F-51, the P-80 became the F-80, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/4 "2001-10-10T13:38:36Z")
Try here RickJay. [http://www.us.hsanet.net/user/driko/usdes.html](http://www.us.hsanet.net/user/driko/usdes.html) > [@](#): > > 1. There are several theories as to the designations F-112 through F-116 as a result of the Stealth fighter’s designation of F-117. One theory holds > that the designations F-112 - F-116 are assigned to aircraft based at the USAF’s Soviet aircraft squadron stationed at Nellis, possibly at the > Tonopah Test Range (TTR) where the F-117 was being developed. However, another theory postulates that many test flights operating out of Nellis > AFB, including those of acquired Soviet MiG aircraft, used the arbitrary call sign “117” and that it was used so often that Lockheed assigned it to > the Stealth fighter to disguise its identity. In using the same call sign as that of other test aircraft, the stealth fighter would then be thought of as > another secret aircraft of the MiG squadron by anyone hearing its designation and not an operational aircraft. A more outlandish scheme claims that > after the 1962 designation system change, new fighters were “recessively” assigned designations following the F-111, the last fighter to have a > pre-1962 designation. Therefore, it would be F-112 (F-14) Tomcat, F-113 (F-15) Eagle, F-114 (F-16) Fighting Falcon, F-115 (YF-17) Cobra, and > F/A-116 (F/A-18) Hornet, leading up to the F-117 Stealth fighter. There is, however, a major flaw to this notion. If the new 1962 system were ignored > and a “recessive” continuation of the pre-1962 system maintained, the Navy would presumably have kept its old system intact, so it would be F13F > Tomcat, F-112 Eagle, F-113 Fighting Falcon, F-114 Cobra, and F5H Hornet, leaving open F-115 and F-116. However, most accounts totally ignore > the F-5 and the YF-12 Blackbird prototype which flew in 1964; adding in these two aircraft could fix the flaw in this “recessive” theory, but the whole > idea seems too bizarre. I also received an e-mail with a different version of this “recessive” theory (thanks to William Blake!): F-112 is the F-5 > Tiger II, F-113 is the F-15 Eagle, F-114 is the F-16 Fighting Falcon, F-115 is the F-17 Cobra, F-116 is a classified aircraft, bringing us to the F-117 > Nighthawk. This does, however, ignore the YF-12 Blackbird. ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/5 "2001-10-10T13:41:04Z")
Well… it was all lined up pretty and stuff in preview… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/6 "2001-10-10T13:51:14Z")
One of the F-117 squadron commanders in the Gulf War gave a talk about it at our company, and was asked this very question. Nobody seems to be really sure, implying it fell through the bureaucratic cracks somehow. Anyway, the F-117 designation was used for radio communications at Edwards and elsewhere, as **crusoe** suggests, while the program was still “black” Earlier numbers were indeed used as codes for planes whose possession by the US was intended to be secret. The pilots themselves called it “the black jet” to each other. The F-19 official designation was set aside for the plane when it became public. However, since the curtains were pulled back a little earlier and perhaps more hastily than expected, the official designation somehow didn’t get assigned properly, and the F-117 code name became so public so quickly that USAF just kept it. ---
**Author:** ![skripek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7bcc69/32.png) [@skripek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skripek)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/7 "2001-10-10T14:03:30Z")
Found a site with listings for US airplane designations although it doesn’t mention anything about the F117 [http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin\_military/usdes.html](http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/usdes.html) I think the idea of F117 being a code name might be a little off, in that case it would have probably been refered to by it’s X designation. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/8 "2001-10-10T14:14:14Z")
“Code name” refers only to radio communications from secret aircraft. The X series is not secret. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/9 "2001-10-10T16:30:56Z")
Tom~ (of **tomndebb** ) addressed this question about halfway down this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=88973). (The question he answered was somewhat of a hijack from my OP.) He had this to say about the F-117: > [@](#): > > The F117 is an anomaly. F117 was a “flight register” number that was not part of the numbering system. Since it was a super-secret plane, no official number was assigned until its presence in the USAF inventory was revealed. At that time, someone said, "Oh, heck, let’s just leave it the F117) (despite the fact that it is an attack weapon, not a fighter). ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/10 "2001-10-10T23:14:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Back in the day, U.S. fighter planes were designated by P-(number,) e.g. the P-38, (snip), etc. Wait a minute!! I thought the P-38 was a can opener??? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2001, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-f-117-not-the-f-19-or-f-21-or-something/86558/11 "2001-10-10T23:27:27Z")
The P designation stood for pursuit.