Why is the fabric spelled cashmere and not Kashmir?

[jtur88]

For pretty much the same reason we have Madras fabrics instead of Chennai fabrics. When the authority to name places was wrested away from the English, that had no effect on the things that the English took with them when they left.

[bldysabba]

@am77494

For reasons unknown to me, the British preferred the letter C instead of K when anglicizing local names. Here are some examples :

1. Kolkata - Calcutta
2. Kanpur - Cawnpore
3. Kochi - Cochin
4. Kadapa - Cuddapah

In fairness, I think the K is just a standard established later for transliteration. I can’t see how things would be any different if they’d preferred K, and the standard later established was C. If there is one, I would be happy to learn

[bldysabba]

@jtur88

For pretty much the same reason we have Madras fabrics instead of Chennai fabrics. When the authority to name places was wrested away from the English, that had no effect on the things that the English took with them when they left.

Actually, in this case, I think Kashmir has been spelled 'Kashmir’since before the British left. This is the earliest reference I can find, just three months after India’s independence - Text of Lord Mountbatten 's letter dated 27 October, 1947 to signify his acceptance of the Instrument of Accession signed by the Kashmir Maharaja https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kasmount.htm

"My dear Maharaja Sahib,

Your Highness’ letter dated 26 October has been delivered to me by Mr. V. P. Menon. In the
special circumstances mentioned by your Highness my Government have decided to accept the
accession of Kashmir State to the Dominion of India. Consistently with their policy that in the case of any State where the issue of accession has been the subject of dispute, the question if accession
should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of the State, it is my Government’s
wish that as soon as law and order have been restored in Kashmir and her soil cleared of the invader the question of the State’s accession should be settled by a reference to the people.

Meanwhile in response to your Highness’ appeal for military aid action has been taken today to send troops of the Indian Army to Kashmir to help your own forces to defend your territory and to
protect the lives, property and honour of your people.

My Government and l note with satisfaction that your Highness has decided to invite Sheikh
Abdullah to form an interim Government to work with your Prime Minister.

With kind regards, I remain,

Yours sincerely,
October 27, 1947.
Mountbatten of Burma."

[Northern_Piper]

@bldysabba

Sorry for the zombie, but someone was wrong on the internet.
Names for India - Wikipedia

@Colophon

Nitpick: it’s Hrvatska.

I don’t think the person you’re both nitpicking will be responding.

He’s probably having an erudite conversation on the issue with Sir William Jones.

[bldysabba]

@Northern_Piper

I don’t think the person you’re both nitpicking will be responding.

Oh crap. Did not know that.

[gnoitall]

@bldysabba

Oh crap. Did not know that.

Take comfort. Somewhere, a zombie is luxuriating in a cravat made from the finest cashmere.

[jtur88]

@bldysabba

Actually, in this case, I think Kashmir has been spelled 'Kashmir’since before the British left. This is the earliest reference I can find, just three months after India’s independence - Text of Lord Mountbatten 's letter dated 27 October, 1947 to signify his acceptance of the Instrument of Accession signed by the Kashmir Maharaja https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kasmount.htm

No doubt, Mountbatten was just being polite to the Maharaja, or not wishing to be seen a colonial lout, just as I would write Milano and Firenza if I were writing to an Italian friend about my proposed itinerary in his country. And, by 1947, many or the English in The Raj had probably already begun using some Indian spellings, like changing saree to sari…

[Northern_Piper]

@gnoitall

Take comfort. Somewhere, a zombie is luxuriating in a cravat made from the finest cashmere.

Polycarp would have liked that one!

[njtt]

@Angua

That the symbols in a language’s “alphabet” are better represented by a syllable rather than a single letter sound. This is the case with languages such as Hindi and Gujerati. I’m sorry I didn’t make this clearer.

You could indeed have made it clearer, by actually using the correct word for that: syllabic. “Phonetic” means something quite different.

[UDS]

@jtur88

No doubt, Mountbatten was just being polite to the Maharaja, or not wishing to be seen a colonial lout, just as I would write Milano and Firenza if I were writing to an Italian friend about my proposed itinerary in his country. And, by 1947, many or the English in The Raj had probably already begun using some Indian spellings, like changing saree to sari…

No. “Kashmir” has been the standard English transliteration for ages. Sir Frances Younghusband’s accounts of his travels in Kashmir, boringly entitled Kashmir were published in 1909. “Kashmir” is consistently used throughout. Sir Walter Lawrence published The Valley of Kashmir in 1895. The OED doesn’t include the names of countries, but it has Kashmir, meaning a native of Kashmir, with cites from 1880 and Kashmiri from 1882.

Up to about 1860, though Cashmere seems to have predominated as the English transliteration of the name. So the change probably happened between 1860 and 1880.

[jtur88]

@UDS

No. “Kashmir” has been the standard English transliteration for ages. Sir Frances Younghusband’s accounts of his travels in Kashmir, boringly entitled Kashmir were published in 1909. “Kashmir” is consistently used throughout. Sir Walter Lawrence published The Valley of Kashmir in 1895. The OED doesn’t include the names of countries, but it has Kashmir, meaning a native of Kashmir, with cites from 1880 and Kashmiri from 1882.

Up to about 1860, though Cashmere seems to have predominated as the English transliteration of the name. So the change probably happened between 1860 and 1880.

That may well be so, but bidysabba’s reference to the Mountbatten letter did not shed any light on that fact.

[Leo_Bloom]

Me, I like damascene.

[Learjeff]

@jtur88

For pretty much the same reason we have Madras fabrics instead of Chennai fabrics. When the authority to name places was wrested away from the English, that had no effect on the things that the English took with them when they left.

Bingo. It’s the same reason we usually see “Peking Duck” on the menu, and not “Beijing Duck”.

Which makes me wonder why we have Roma tomatos, but never mind.

[bldysabba]

@jtur88

That may well be so, but bidysabba’s reference to the Mountbatten letter did not shed any light on that fact.

On the contrary, it makes it highly probable that the British government at least was already using the ‘Kashmir’ spelling before India got its independence. And it certainly sheds more light than your evidence free assertion that he was “no doubt” doing it to please the Maharaja of Kashmir.

[Nava]

@am77494

For reasons unknown to me, the British preferred the letter C instead of K when anglicizing local names. Here are some examples :

1. Kolkata - Calcutta
2. Kanpur - Cawnpore
3. Kochi - Cochin
4. Kadapa - Cuddapah

Some of those may have reached English via Portuguese, a language in which K is very rare.

[bldysabba]

@Nava

Some of those may have reached English via Portuguese, a language in which K is very rare.

That’s certainly possible with Cochin, which was an early portugese base in India, but to the best of my knowledge, the Portugese had nothing to do with the remaining three.

[bldysabba]

@Learjeff

Bingo.

No, not Bingo. In fact it has been conclusively shown that the mechanism for Cashmere/Kashmir has nothing to do with name changes that happened after the British left. The ‘Kashmir’ spelling had taken root well before an independent India was even a demand of the Indian National Congress.

[BrightNShiny]

From this wiki on the Hunterian transliteration system:

The original precursor to the Hunterian system was a transliteration method developed by Charles Wilkins, who is sometimes called the “father of Devanagari typography” because he was also the creator of the first Devanagari typeface.[4][6] William Jones, who also founded the Asiatic Society, further developed the transliteration method.[4] It was given a more complete form in the late nineteenth century by William Wilson Hunter, then Surveyor General of India.[7] When it was proposed, it immediately met with opposition from supporters of the phonetic Dowler system, which climaxed in a dramatic showdown in an India Council meeting on 28 May 1872 where the new Hunterian method carried the day. The Hunterian method was inherently simpler and extensible to several Indic scripts because it systematized grapheme transliteration, and it came to prevail and gain government and academic acceptance.[7] Opponents of the grapheme transliteration model continued to mount unsuccessful attempts at reversing government policy until the turn of the century, with one critic calling appealing to "“the Indian Government to give up the whole attempt at scientific (i.e. Hunterian) transliteration, and decide once and for all in favour of a return to the old phonetic spelling.”

So, from that, I gather that the British Raj standardized on the Hunterian system in 1872, and from the article, it looks to me like Kashmir would be the proper Hunterian transliteration. Prior to 1872, the Raj (and before that, the East India Co.) appear to have haphazardly used either the Wilkins system or the “Dowler” system.