# Why is the food in Italian restaurants shite apart from pizza? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162 "2005-10-14T02:49:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@Lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lola)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/21 "2005-10-14T05:13:08Z")
Well, I’ve been thinking of going (yet) again in order to finally see the attraction. I just don’t know what to DO when I’m in Macau. Walking’s better in HK, restaurants are better just about anywhere, makes HK look like a cultural Mecca, which is hard. Thanks for the restaurant tips; the French one sounds interesting. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/22 "2005-10-14T05:53:14Z")
The google adds in this thread include Domino’s. Now _that’s_ shite pizza! Aside from a handful of bad places I’ve always found excellent food in most Italian restaurants. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/23 "2005-10-14T14:01:48Z")
I’ve been to England. I’ve eaten the pizza there. Pizza Piazza, as I recall. It’s not that the rest of the food is bad, Roger. It’s that the pizza is mediocre and British pizza is godawful. I had to go to McDonalds for fries to get the taste out of my mouth, it was that bad. Dominos and Pizza Hut aren’t bad pizza. They’re _cheap_ pizza. Cheap and not good. But they’re not _bad_. Bad is made with tomato sauce, not pizza sauce. Bad is when the dough was stale when they cooked it, the cheese is runny, and the sauce is sweet. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/24 "2005-10-14T14:19:27Z")
I have to agree with the crowd and say that the problem is your location. As an aside I’ve never had good Itallian food in Japan either. My wife took me to a few places for “authentic” itallian food and it was no better than that “Chef Boyardee” crap that comes in a tin can. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/25 "2005-10-14T14:22:59Z")
Pizza is like sex. When it’s good, it’s _great_. And when it’s bad…it’s still pretty good. But I’ve also found that I rarely go wrong with chicken parmesan. The closest I’ve come to “bad” with it is “the portion is too small.” ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/26 "2005-10-14T14:34:11Z")
I’m kind of with **roger thornhill** on this one. The last kind of restaurant I would pay money to eat at is Italian. Even the things that extolled: ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/27 "2005-10-14T14:35:06Z")
Every year on my birthday (which is coming up), my girlfriend buys me delivery food from any place I want. Money is no object. I invariably get Italian from a certain place. (Bostonians, it’s Pappa-Razzi.) I’m pretty sure that this place has never heard of a meatball, much less pizza. One thing that delighted me was their antipasto. Marinated mushrooms, marinated artichokes, eggplant, and a variety of interesting meats and cheeses. It’s like there’s an orgasm in my mouth and everyone’s invited. For years, cheap pizza joints had me convinced that antipasto was iceberg lettuce, canned olives, mushy tomatoes, a slice of American cheese, and bologna. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/28 "2005-10-14T14:38:26Z")
I’m kind of with **roger thornhill** on this one. The last kind of restaurant I would pay money to eat at is Italian. Even the things that extolled: “spaghetti, linguini, penne, gniocchi, chicken or veal parmesan.” I can cook just as well at home. Most ethnic restaurants serve meals that are very hard to knock out at home but even good Italian leaves me feeling “I could have done this.” ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/29 "2005-10-14T14:51:03Z")
Decent Italian food is so easy to find around here (central MA) that I don’t consider it “ethnic” food, like I would Chinese or Mexican cuisine. It’s simply ubiquitous. Really great Italian food is only slightly more hard to find. There’s good pizza around too, most of which also serve Italian-y dishes as well. As a rule, these are inferior to non-pizza resturaunt’s work, but even that has frequent exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/30 "2005-10-14T14:53:51Z")
Well I live in NJ & was born in NYC. We have hundreds of excellent Italian restaurants. So location location location would be your answer. As an Italian-American, I assumed you were just abbreviating. No offense taken. …I suspect the best Italian-American Food can be found in Brooklyn and Little Italy and parts of North Jersey. I believe many in Chicago & San Fran. would object to this statement. Keeping in mind that much of what is established as Italian food, including Pizza is really Italian-American. …I recall from some Asian friends I had that they considered Pizza, Hamburgers and Hotdogs to be eating American. …BTW The typical Chinese-American restaurants are really not typical Chinese food either, but if you are in Hong Kong you already knew this. ---
**Author:** ![rainy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@rainy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rainy)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/31 "2005-10-14T18:30:15Z")
Well, I’m going to agree with the OP based on my experience. I find that a huge number of dishes in Itialian restuarants simply don’t have the variety of taste and texture that makes me think “Wow this is good stuff!” Instead I get tired of a whole plate of essentially the same flavor and consistency. Then by the end of the meal, I’m not viewing the dish I ordered in a good light at all. Pizza avoids this pitfall by its very nature. And perhaps personal taste is the answer. I like my meals to have a lot of variety to them. I’m trying to think of analogous dishes outside of Italian cooking. Hmmm…soup, or gumbo. Served with a sandwich = nice / just a bowl of soup = meh. Lemon chicken / orange chicken; the local restuarants just serve it as breaded chicken in sauce, no veggies = boring. Order just a burrito dish = so-so / add some lettuce, tomato, gaucamole on top = a little piece of heaven. I can’t think of any other examples right now, but I notice the same situation a lot myself when dining Italian. The menu seems to be full of single sensation dishes. -rainy ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/32 "2005-10-14T18:40:00Z")
> [@rainy](#): > > Well, I’m going to agree with the OP based on my experience. I find that a huge number of dishes in Itialian restuarants simply don’t have the variety of taste and texture that makes me think “Wow this is good stuff!” Instead I get tired of a whole plate of essentially the same flavor and consistency. Then by the end of the meal, I’m not viewing the dish I ordered in a good light at all. Pizza avoids this pitfall by its very nature. This is pretty much my feeling toward Mexican food. It’s all the same stuff (tortillas with meat, cheese, maybe some lettuce and tomato) formed into different shapes. Couple that with the fact that there’s always someone in every group outing who is “desperately craving Mexican food,” and I’m all too frequently guaranteed a mediocre dining experience when I’m being social. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/33 "2005-10-14T19:03:06Z")
Moderator Comment: **Roger** , I’ve modified the thread title to be less offensive. Others reading, that will explain the comments about “iti” that no longer make any sense. (Please note that if I had any inclination that **Roger** – or anyone – was deliberately using ethinc slurs, I would have a quite different reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/34 "2005-10-14T19:16:34Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > I suspect the best Italian-American Food can be found in Brooklyn and Little Italy and parts of North Jersey. It sure isn’t in Westchester. We’ve got paesan’s up the giggy hereabouts (me too) and about 8 jillion pizzerias and bistros, all ranging from mediocre to Og-awful. I don’t know how it’s possible. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/35 "2005-10-14T19:33:41Z")
> [@Lola](#): > > I’ve always found Macau to be pretty shite in general; if you don’t gamble, what’s the point? \ You can always wander around randomly and get solicited by the “hens” (prostitutes) in the casinos. (It was rather weird when that happened to me, and I was completely baffled until her _mama-san_/pimp spelled it out for me…) \ Been to Macau once; couldn’t see the appeal. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/36 "2005-10-15T02:34:30Z")
I expect the Italian restaurants in NYC, NJ, and many other places too, are top notch. Watching _The Sopranos_ has the effect of making me want to visit one, or maybe dine at Carmella’s, though the table manners are something else. There’s just something about my experiences at Italian restaurants, even in Italy in 1990, that leaves me feeling disappointed - unless I have pizza. Price and portion size are another issue, especially in Italy. Compared to France, and French food more generally, e.g. the French restaurants in HK and Macau, I almost always come out of an Italian restaurant with the feeling that I’ve been taken for a ride. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/37 "2005-10-15T02:43:56Z")
I think the trick is that good Italian restaurants generally don’t serve pizza, and good pizzerias stick to pizza and other “faux-talian” foods like meatball subs. They really shouldn’t be mixed. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/38 "2005-10-15T02:47:10Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I expect the Italian restaurants in NYC, NJ, and many other places too, are top notch. Watching _The Sopranos_ has the effect of making me want to visit one, or maybe dine at Carmella’s, though the table manners are something else. > > There’s just something about my experiences at Italian restaurants, even in Italy in 1990, that leaves me feeling disappointed - unless I have pizza. Price and portion size are another issue, especially in Italy. Compared to France, and French food more generally, e.g. the French restaurants in HK and Macau, I almost always come out of an Italian restaurant with the feeling that I’ve been taken for a ride. Wow that last part is scary. Italian restaurants around this area usually pride themselves on large portions. But as I said earlier, I am really talking about Italian-American not true Italian. True Italian is actually heavy of fish and much less about the thick tomato sauce they typically serve here. (I am simplifying it) Growing up my Italian neighbors (as in from Italy, actual immigrants) made there sauce from fresh crushed tomatoes and was probably closer to what goes as a Pesto here. Pizza is effectively Italian-American and actually went back over to Italy. The various stories of the modern Pizza have NYC as the birth place in USA and really anywhere but Naples. This is pretty much how I heard the story, it is from Wilipedia: > [@](#): > > An Italian immigrant to the US in 1897 named Gennaro Lombardi opened a small grocery store in New York’s Little Italy. An employee of his, Antonio Totonno Pero (also an Italian immigrant) began making pizza for the store to sell. Their pizza became so popular, Lombardi opened the first US pizzeria in 1905 at 53 1/3 Spring Street, naming it simply Lombardi’s (which then reopened at 32 Spring Street)). In 1924, Totonno left Lombardi’s to open his own pizzeria on Coney Island called Totonno’s. Frank Pepe Pizzeria Napoletana opened in New Haven in 1925. Boston was introduced to pizza in 1926 by Anthony Polcari when he opened Pizzeria Regina in Boston’s North End. At this point in time in the U.S., pizza consumption was still limited mostly to the Italian immigrant crowd. > The international breakthrough came after World War II. Although the birthplace of modern day pizza is Naples, local bakers were at a loss to satisfy the demand from American soldiers. While the American troops involved in the Italian campaign took their appreciation for the dish back home, the millions of Italians called to help rebuild the damaged economy introduced their cuisine to the rest of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/39 "2005-10-15T03:48:50Z")
Italian restaurants in HK are pretty much shite. There’s a ground floor one in Pacific Place (and same chain at the airport and Jardine House) that’s passable. forget the name. There are some really good ones in Shanghai. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162/40 "2005-10-15T05:36:57Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Wow that last part is scary. Italian restaurants around this area usually pride themselves on large portions. But as I said earlier, I am really talking about Italian-American not true Italian. True Italian is actually heavy of fish and much less about the thick tomato sauce they typically serve here. (I am simplifying it) > Growing up my Italian neighbors (as in from Italy, actual immigrants) made there sauce from fresh crushed tomatoes and was probably closer to what goes as a Pesto here. > Pizza is effectively Italian-American and actually went back over to Italy. The various stories of the modern Pizza have NYC as the birth place in USA and really anywhere but Naples. > > This is pretty much how I heard the story, it is from Wilipedia: > An Italian immigrant to the US in 1897 named Gennaro Lombardi opened a small grocery store in New York’s Little Italy. An employee of his, Antonio Totonno Pero (also an Italian immigrant) began making pizza for the store to sell. Their pizza became so popular, Lombardi opened the first US pizzeria in 1905 at 53 1/3 Spring Street, naming it simply Lombardi’s (which then reopened at 32 Spring Street)). In 1924, Totonno left Lombardi’s to open his own pizzeria on Coney Island called Totonno’s. Frank Pepe Pizzeria Napoletana opened in New Haven in 1925. Boston was introduced to pizza in 1926 by Anthony Polcari when he opened Pizzeria Regina in Boston’s North End. At this point in time in the U.S., pizza consumption was still limited mostly to the Italian immigrant crowd. > The international breakthrough came after World War II. Although the birthplace of modern day pizza is Naples, local bakers were at a loss to satisfy the demand from American soldiers. While the American troops involved in the Italian campaign took their appreciation for the dish back home, the millions of Italians called to help rebuild the damaged economy introduced their cuisine to the rest of Europe. I just want to comment that Totonno’s in Coney Island is still in business. Many people rave about them. I’ve eaten there twice and IMO Totonno’s is very overrated. The pizza was good but nothing more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-food-in-italian-restaurants-shite-apart-from-pizza/326162.md?page=3)