# Why is the internet so bad with nuance, and is there anything that can be done? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 20, 2023, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310 "2023-07-20T16:17:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/21 "2023-07-21T07:44:37Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > It’s really, IMO, no deeper than that. Everybody is an author and a publisher while nobody is an editor. Bingo. I’ve seen a bunch of self-published books, ones the author thought were good enough to pay money to submit to a contest, that wouldn’t have made it past the most superficial scrutiny. And posting is a lot lower bar than paying to get a book published. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > Humanity now has so many topic areas to be expert in that darn near everybody is darn near clueless about almost all of them. In my experience most of the sinners in this area aren’t expert in anything, except maybe widget assembly or sweeping floors. Being an expert in a field often exposes you to people who make elementary mistakes about it, plus, having the experience of going through the work of attaining expertise can make you realize what you don’t know about other fields. The few real experts who are clueless about other things and don’t know it seem to come from ego (Linus Pauling) or fanaticism about some area which they try to support through their misplaced expertise - like creationist lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/22 "2023-07-21T10:25:48Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > If you post something that 99% of people think is correct and 1% disagree, which ones do you think will write you? Absolutely this. The problem is that I’m in the (in many other ways very fortunate and pleasant) situation where I get a lot of people, in total, communicating with me - thousands and thousands of them; this tends to amplify the perception of the bad so it seems disproportionate to the good. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/23 "2023-07-21T10:29:47Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > But if you’re just growing your own variety of squash, there shouldn’t be a problem unless your neighbors are growing squashes too, and the whole lot of you are risking Toxic Squash Death.\* I know you’re kidding, but yeah; they’re not - and that is another interesting facet of the problem; there is no amount of preloading you can do that will forestall the ‘yes, but’ - even if you think to mention that your neighbours have all astroturfed their gardens, or that you have no neighbours, that merely invites the nitpickers to try to imagine some other scenario that you _haven’t_ mentioned (“Yes, but beekeepers move their hives around, so some of the bees might have previously been in contact with pollen elsewhere”) - the problem is not the information, its something else. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/24 "2023-07-21T11:06:05Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > It’s really, IMO, no deeper than that. Everybody is an author and a publisher while nobody is an editor. Yes, except it depends on the editor. We would not always agree on which book has the most nonsense, but I think we could agree that there commonly are professionally edited books full of nonsense on the New York Times nonfiction bestseller list. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/25 "2023-07-21T11:20:19Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > … > And I’d say there are active and passive forms of this. The passive version is that you get slotted into some generic anti version of the viewpoint, and you have spend time saying “no, I don’t believe all those other things, I’m just arguing against these particular unsupported statements.” The active version is less common but much more like strawmanning, where it feels like you’re being railroaded into taking positions that other “antis” take, often with a moral element as well (“you’re just defending horrible entity X”, “people who believe Y have these horrible beliefs Z, how can you agree with them?”). It can get very tedious. Agree with all the above. A variant I saw a lot during the runup to the 2016 & 2020 elections was an inability of many folks to separate a prediction of what _will_ happen from a preference about what _should_ happen. I would say “I think Trump will win in 2016 because …” and I’d get roasted by people thinking I was a Trump supporter. They could not separate the idea of a dispassionate prediction from cheerleading for an outcome. I got to adding a boilerplate sentence up front about my preference not matching my prediction, and that just triggered a different kind of uncomprehension. Thinking. It’s harder than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/26 "2023-07-21T11:39:04Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > They could not separate the idea of a dispassionate prediction from cheerleading for an outcome. I got to adding a boilerplate sentence up front about my preference not matching my prediction, and that just triggered a different kind of uncomprehension. > > Thinking. It’s harder than we thought. I’m not sure, but there must be some of this that’s the same, and some different, depending on if it is political. Non-political might be more of a pure echo chamber to extremism. On the non-political, one example I saw was with ivermectin for herding dogs (this is long before COVID). A legitimate research study showed some dogs being sickened or, rarely, killed by high doses used to cure a condition. But it is also used, at much lower doses, as a preventive. This study resulted in internet posters insisting that if you gave ivermectin as a preventive, you were a monster. This resulted in real world switching to a less effective preventative. (Although the ivermectin-free heart worm preventatives prescribed by vets today may be just as good and indicated in areas where ivermectin resistance has developed.) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2023, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/27 "2023-07-21T19:08:51Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > an inability of many folks to separate a prediction of what _will_ happen from a preference about what _should_ happen. Oh yeah, that’s super common. I guess it’s a corollary of the magical thinking where if you believe in something hard enough, you can make it happen. If that’s true, then someone who is _pessimistic_ about a thing must want the opposite to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Steven\_Maven](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steven_maven/32/3272_2.png) [@Steven\_Maven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steven_Maven)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/28 "2023-07-22T14:31:44Z")
“There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that **my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.** ” —Isaac Asimov ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/29 "2023-07-22T14:38:10Z")
I’m not sure it’s a cult of ignorance, exactly. But there is certainly a persistent meme of the smart country boy running rings round all them college perfessors with their book-larnin’ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/30 "2023-07-22T15:06:04Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Is it all of them? Or is it that an intersection of stupid, ignorant and _vociferous_ is at play, making it seem as loud as the whole world, even though its only a part? I don’t feel the problem is that the internet is dumber than the offline world. The problem is the internet is bigger. If you discuss something like growing squashes with the people you meet in person, you’re probably only going to talk about it with five to ten people. If the discussion on squash occurs on the internet, there may be fifty to a hundred people who comment. And as the size of the group grows larger, the likelihood of encountering people out on the fringe who hold extreme beliefs on the topic increases. And while these people on the fringe may be a small minority in the conversation, they’re often the loudest and most noticeable participants. ---
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/31 "2023-07-22T16:48:36Z")
Just to be precise, this not a picture of Albert Einstein, but of Hugh Jackman with a wig. 😉 😆 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/32 "2023-07-22T18:24:58Z")
Richard Hofstadter published _[Anti-intellectualism in American Life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life)_ in 1963. > Hofstadter described anti-intellectualism as “resentment of the life of the mind, and those who are considered to represent it; and a disposition to constantly minimize the value of that life.”[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life#cite_note-6) > > Also, he described the term as a view that “intellectuals…are pretentious, conceited… and snobbish; and very likely immoral, dangerous, and subversive … The plain sense of the common man is an altogether adequate substitute for, if not actually much superior to, formal knowledge and expertise.”[[7]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life#cite_note-7) We just gave them a giant pencil with no eraser. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/33 "2023-07-22T18:58:26Z")
I think you’re right - and the conversation partners are sort of self-selecting - if you talk about squashes on the internet, the people who have nothing to say, say nothing; the people who agree, probably say nothing; the people who _just have to blurt out this thing they know,_ are the ones to say it. Today, BTW, it was peanuts. I was preparing some raw white beans by soaking and peeling them and I remarked on how they resembled peanuts, and how maybe that shouldn’t be a surprise, since peanuts are essentially beans. The internet was quick to confidently incorrect me that it was pretty sure peanuts are some sort of tuber, since they grow in the ground. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/34 "2023-07-22T20:28:33Z")
Nah, peanuts are nodules that grow only on the roots of Giant Sequoias. They’re triggered by underground moths laying their eggs on the roots. _Everybody_ knows that! 😁 ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/35 "2023-07-22T22:06:30Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > a prediction of what _will_ happen from a preference about what _should_ happen. And an inverse of that in most legal discussions. People claim to be arguing about what the law actually says, but instead they’re arguing over what they think the law _should_ say. The people arguing for what it should be often make more sense than the legislators who voted in the complex or unjust law, or the judges who have interpreted it, but, of course, a sound argument for how things should be does not change how things are. > [@Mangetout](#): > > _just have to blurt out this thing they know_ Lately I’ve seen some very funny trolling of this type of respondent. The one I particularly liked, though I can’t find, was a mundane selfie “check out my new earrings” or whatever, but in the background was a dishwasher containing a cast iron skillet (which was the whole point of the picture). Many comments about the best way to care for cast iron. Here is another. This is a screen shot of a post on Bluesky of a screenshot of a post on Threads. [https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/drive-viewer/AITFw-wCSF22hUMaakVuTCYBO1\_fmQDe5VafCShrI5Eb73-Ewu\_dEPqqCraPlAmtf9TPaB23hAkRXAqPnBTsTfepexCcZhIz=s1600](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/drive-viewer/AITFw-wCSF22hUMaakVuTCYBO1_fmQDe5VafCShrI5Eb73-Ewu_dEPqqCraPlAmtf9TPaB23hAkRXAqPnBTsTfepexCcZhIz=s1600) Image from “drewtoothpaste” who says, “the only thing i’ve been posting on threads is pics of toxic mushrooms i find in the forest and comments that imply im eating them” (sic). Below are two pictures. The first is an orange mushroom with the text “mouth tingling very dizzyp,” and the second a white mushroom with the text “forest mushroom, didnt taste good.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/36 "2023-07-22T22:48:31Z")
kenm used to be the master at that. Example: [![](https://preview.redd.it/nrs5u7dkmne01.png?auto=webp&s=f735ef74c8f295204ee927bb57967f0a77df0bea) ](https://preview.redd.it/nrs5u7dkmne01.png?auto=webp&s=f735ef74c8f295204ee927bb57967f0a77df0bea) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2023, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/37 "2023-07-22T22:51:22Z")
I suppose one could counter-troll (or is that meta-troll?) by posting back to him something like: > Hey kenm, you’d get fewer responses from safety-conscious know-it-alls if you composed your pix without faked hooks in them. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/38 "2023-07-24T20:34:44Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Richard Hofstadter published _[Anti-intellectualism in American Life](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism_in_American_Life)_ in 1963. “Eggheads” were a term if derision during the '50s. One of the issues with Adlai Stevenson seemed to be that he came across as too smart. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/39 "2023-07-24T21:24:51Z")
From the [Chicago Tribune](https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/letters/ct-a-call-to-every-thinking-person-20170804-story.html) > When Illinois Gov. Adlai Stevenson was running for president in the 1950s, a supporter purportedly said to him: “Every thinking person in America will be voting for you.” Stevenson replied, “I’m afraid that won’t do — I need a majority.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2023, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310/40 "2023-07-24T23:44:58Z")
He was right. Evidently it’s taking longer than even he thought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-internet-so-bad-with-nuance-and-is-there-anything-that-can-be-done/987310.md?page=3)