# Why is the Israeli party system so fractured? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 27, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481 "2011-12-27T02:17:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_Wikipedia_Cites)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/1 "2011-12-27T02:17:28Z")
Looking at the current makeup of the Knesset, there are 18 parties represented in only 120 seats. Even the largest party has barely more than 1/5 of the seats. I know that the Israeli system allows for multiparty lists and is not elected by district, but even so, why is it so fractured? I counted not just several party lists of nationalist-style platformed parties, but different factions _within_ those lists. Why aren’t more of the smaller parties joining forces? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/2 "2011-12-27T02:22:21Z")
It all went downhill after the People’s Front of Judea split off from the Judean People’s Front. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/3 "2011-12-27T02:55:08Z")
Party list can do that. Look at Italian politics a few years ago. I don’t think it’s a bad thing, really. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/4 "2011-12-27T03:33:58Z")
That’s why having proportional representation for political parties is a bad idea. It empowers the radicals. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/5 "2011-12-27T04:02:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s why having proportional representation for political parties is a bad idea. > > It empowers the radicals. I think it works better with a 5% minimum threshold rule like the Germans have. If that was put in place in Israel, there would only be 5 parties in the Knesset rather than the current 12. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/6 "2011-12-27T04:13:02Z")
> [@No\_Wikipedia\_Cites](#): > > Looking at the current makeup of the Knesset, there are 18 parties represented in only 120 seats. Even the largest party has barely more than 1/5 of the seats. There were 12 parties that passed the electoral threshold. The 18 today (if that is so, I didn’t look) are the result of further splintering after the elections. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/7 "2011-12-27T04:24:49Z")
Have you ever heard the saying,“two Jews, three opinions”? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/8 "2011-12-27T05:27:33Z")
I’m pretty sure 13 parties have Knesset representation right now: Kadima, Likud, Yisrael Beitenu, Shas, Labor, Haatzma`ut, United Torah Judaism, Hadash, National Union, Ra`am-Ta’al, the New National Religious Party, the National Democratic Assembly, and Meretz. There were 12 who passed the threshold, but then Labor broke in half, when Barak left to form Haatzma’ut along with the rest of the Labor people who wanted to keep the Likud coalition. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/9 "2011-12-27T05:38:10Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’m pretty sure 13 parties have Knesset representation right now: > > Kadima, Likud, Yisrael Beitenu, Shas, Labor, Haatzma`ut, United Torah Judaism, Hadash, National Union, Ra`am-Ta’al, the New National Religious Party, the National Democratic Assembly, and Meretz. 1. Emil Haim Amsalem broke off from Shas. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/10 "2011-12-27T05:46:18Z")
You’re right. I forgot about him. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/11 "2011-12-27T05:55:24Z")
Splitter! ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/12 "2011-12-27T20:23:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > That’s why having proportional representation for political parties is a bad idea. > > It empowers the radicals. It empowers minority opinions. Without overrepresenting them. Unlike our 2 party system which empowers radical rightwingers far beyond their due electoral support. Since when is suppressing opinions considered a benefit? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/13 "2011-12-27T21:50:32Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Party list can do that. > > Look at Italian politics a few years ago. > > I don’t think it’s a bad thing, really. But it has not happened in South Africa (ANC still polls absolute majority). I think multiplication of small parties says less about a country’s political system than about its political culture. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/14 "2011-12-27T22:22:38Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > It empowers minority opinions. Without overrepresenting them. Unlike our 2 party system which empowers radical rightwingers far beyond their due electoral support. > > Since when is suppressing opinions considered a benefit? If the US adopted Israel’s system then the religious right and the Tea Party would have vastly more influence then they do now. In Israel Jewish fundamentalists have vastly more influence than do Christians fundamentalists in the US and that’s despite the fact that a far, far higher percentage of Americans identify themselves as born-again Christians than Israelis could be considered ultra-Orthodox. Now, perhaps you would like to live in a country where the Tea Party and the religious right had vastly more power but I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/15 "2011-12-27T22:31:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If the US adopted Israel’s system then the religious right and the Tea Party would have vastly more influence then they do now. But vastly **less** over the GOP, which would no longer be burdened with them. And, at the same time, new parties of the left would emerge – I would expect the [Working Families Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Families_Party) to go national. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/16 "2011-12-28T03:27:20Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > I think it works better with a 5% minimum threshold rule like the Germans have. If that was put in place in Israel, there would only be 5 parties in the Knesset rather than the current 12. Not quite. The Turks have a 5% threshold. The German system is more complicated and is overdue for a change. Germans actually have two votes. The first is for a a particular member to represent their district and the second is a vote for the party. The second vote actually determines the total allocation of the Bundestag to a particular party. Most Germans don’t really understand how this works, either, and that’s apparently why it is sort of successful. See Sartori’s _Comparative Constitutional Engineering_ for the bewildering details. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/17 "2011-12-28T07:26:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > If the US adopted Israel’s system then the religious right and the Tea Party would have vastly more influence then they do now. I disagree. I’d say that segregating religious conservatives from business conservatives could well make both easier to deal with. In any case this analysis is backwards. A democracy should be judged on how well it represents its citizenry not on how well it reflects your personal opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/18 "2011-12-28T12:46:23Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > I disagree. I’d say that segregating religious conservatives from business conservatives could well make both easier to deal with. In any case this analysis is backwards. A democracy should be judged on how well it represents its citizenry not on how well it reflects your personal opinions. Yes and no. A democracy should be judged how well its actual policy outcomes represent the desires of its citizens. Consider the simple case of three parties in the US: the economic left, the economic right, and social conservatives, mostly indifferent to economic issues. Neither party has a clear majority. This means that in any coalition, pandering to the social conservatives is required _no matter how small their representation actually is_. This gives a small slice of the population outsized influence on policy creation. But in a “good” democracy, each citizen should have a roughly equal influence on policy creation via representation. Parties fracture because their members know that there is a good chance that a splinter party will _have_ to be included in the formation of a government regardless of the identity of the majority party. This violates some deeply-held convictions of fairness and equity. Personally, I think the only way we are going to have peace in the middle east is if Israel changes its electoral rules. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/19 "2011-12-28T14:03:10Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Germans actually have two votes. The first is for a a particular member to represent their district and the second is a vote for the party. The second vote actually determines the total allocation of the Bundestag to a particular party. Yes, but unless I’m mistaken, parties which don’t get at least 5% of the total party vote (or a certain number of directly elected seats, but that wouldn’t apply to the Israeli system) don’t win any seats. That is the 5% threshold I was referring to. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481/20 "2011-12-28T15:45:26Z")
There are democracies that incorporate elements of proportional representation yet manage to avoid the musical-coalitions phenomenon – in Israel’s case it’s not just the low threshold but also IIRC a 100% at-large list system that also helps the heavy fracturing. IMO, were there a significant number of “hard” seats that were to be directly elected (whether by district or at large, and we can even make it be by IR preference vote if we dislike US-style simple plurality), rather than just allocated from the list, that would weigh the system back in favor of broader parties. Thing is, it hits many as unfair that with popular vote in the mid-40s % range you may get landslide supermajorities of elected legislators/delegates, as can happen with a US-style first-past-the-post WTA system; yet by the same measure it’s infuriating to think that single-issue 3-percenters could take the entire government as hostage. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-israeli-party-system-so-fractured/607481.md?page=2)