# Why is the Joker so dangerous? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 20, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307 "2010-07-20T01:35:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Animastryfe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Animastryfe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Animastryfe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/1 "2010-07-20T01:35:53Z")
I have never read a Batman comic. Everything I know about the Joker I know from the Dark Knight, TVtropes, some parts of wikipedia, and popular culture. I wish to be educated on what makes him so dangerous in the comics. Which issues should I read in order to eternally fear him? ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/2 "2010-07-20T01:43:16Z")
Couple thoughts about this: 1. If you aren’t familiar with sociopaths in general, you could start there. Basically, the Joker is absolutely and completely without morals or a conscience, which makes anyone dangerous. I would recommend reading [www.crimelibrary.com](http://www.crimelibrary.com) and Frank Miller’s Dark Knight series. In a nutshell, his insanity makes him absolutely and completely unpredictable. 2. The Joker is basically a deux ex machina. He has been characterized over the years as being able to accomplish just about anything he wants to. In some sense, he is omnipotent and infallible as needed in the plot, in much the same way as Luthor. A good example of this aspect of the Joker is the movie the Dark Knight, where it seems like the Joker knows exactly where Batman will be and in some cases, appears to be in two places at the same time. 3. As Batman’s archenemy, he’s essentially as powerful as Batman, which is pretty tough in and of itself. Luthor, for example, gets a lot of props simply because he’s able to put up a reasonable offense against Superman, as the Joker does against Batman, or the Red Skull against Captain America. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/3 "2010-07-20T01:48:38Z")
He’s extremely well funded, he’s got no conscious, and he’s brilliant. Maybe smarter than Bruce Wayne, who’s alluded to be a high level genius in more than one comic. What could be more danger than a well funded, brilliant sociopath? A well funded, brilliant sociopath with a vendetta – and that’s the Joker. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/4 "2010-07-20T02:07:46Z")
And the Joker is not only amoral but whimsical. Other superbaddies will kill for money or power; the Joker will kill for fun. He will even kill when not killing would seem to be more in his interest. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/5 "2010-07-20T02:57:19Z")
Because he kills onstage. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/6 "2010-07-20T02:59:47Z")
basically for the same reasons batman is so dangerous. batman for not having any superpowers really kicks the tar out of some super-baddies. joker is essentially what batman does, but for the other team… plus he kills. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/7 "2010-07-20T03:02:40Z")
Batman’s Jungian shadow, then? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/8 "2010-07-20T03:13:11Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Batman’s Jungian shadow, then? Kind of. Look at this exchange between them in the Dark Knight. Batman does not let the Joker fall to his death, and the Joker just finds that hilarious. > [@](#): > > The Joker: Oh, you. You just couldn’t let me go, could you? This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You are truly incorruptible, aren’t you? Huh? You won’t kill me out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won’t kill you because you’re just _too much fun_. I think you and I are destined to do this forever. > > Batman: You’ll be in a padded cell forever. > > The Joker: Maybe we can share one. You know, they’ll be doubling up, the rate this city’s inhabitants are losing their minds. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/9 "2010-07-20T03:24:42Z")
He’s also GenreSavy and can often break the fourth wall, due to his craziness. A bad guy that knows he’s in a comic, and knows the rules of that comic? Even without the sociopathy, that’s a dangerous villain. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/10 "2010-07-20T03:47:45Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > Batman’s Jungian shadow, then? If one of the characteristics of the [Shadow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29) is a much, much better sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/11 "2010-07-20T04:54:39Z")
What everyone else said, but also: The Joker can create followers just by being near them long enough–first, he breaks their spirit, then, he drives them crazy, then, he makes them loyal to him. Then, of course, he sacrifices them uncaringly. And all through sheer force of will. As such, he is near-impossible to contain. Any prison he is in will soon become his kingdom given enough time. He’s got loads of contacts, both inside and out. And he’s so crazy that even in the most remote and isolated cell, the guards still let their guard down around him. And, of course, Batman won’t kill him…but he’s the only one with enough willpower to defeat him. Thus, the constant Joker prison breaks. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/12 "2010-07-20T04:54:51Z")
**The Killing Joke** by Alan Moore made two things pretty clear: He’s crazier than you suspect. And while Batman is stronger and more skilled, the Joker is actually a lot faster. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/13 "2010-07-20T05:13:37Z")
He’s not just insane; he is, in some sense, insanity itself. His madness is contagious. Consider, for instance, Harley Quinn, who started out as a perfectly sane, normal, and law-abiding psychiatrist (though, of course, with a name that doomed her), who attempted to treat the Joker during one of his stints in jail. The result? She’s now a Queen of Crime in her own right, and madly in love with the Joker. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/14 "2010-07-20T05:18:18Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > What everyone else said, but also: > > The Joker can create followers just by being near them long enough–first, he breaks their spirit, then, he drives them crazy, then, he makes them loyal to him. Then, of course, he sacrifices them uncaringly. And all through sheer force of will. Hell, yeah! **I’m** ready to kill for him, and I know he’s fictional! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/15 "2010-07-20T05:41:25Z")
The Joker is the very definition of ‘Other directed,’ his motives can’t be understood, so he can’t be reasoned with or bribed. Many villians persure money or power or revenge, a few, like Freddy or Jason don’t appear to have a motive, but The Joker raises unfathomability to an art form. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/16 "2010-07-20T20:56:16Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > The Joker is the very definition of ‘Other directed,’ his motives can’t be understood, so he can’t be reasoned with or bribed. Many villians persure money or power or revenge, a few, like Freddy or Jason don’t appear to have a motive, but The Joker raises unfathomability to an art form. He’s a genius, he is incredibly tough, he is completely ruthless, and he just doesn’t give a damn. As one well known person says, “Some men just want to watch the world burn”. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/17 "2010-07-20T22:08:33Z")
He is exceptionally gifted in technology, especially chemistry. In particular, psychoactives & toxins. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/18 "2010-07-20T23:40:43Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > He’s a genius, he is incredibly tough, he is completely ruthless, and he just doesn’t give a damn. > > As one well known person says, “Some men just want to watch the world burn”. This. Other Bat villains have superpowers, more resources, more henchmen etc. But they can be predicted and understood. The Joker does things for no sane reason. In one issue, he pushes a henchman in front of a speeding car just for asking ‘Where ya goin boss?’ ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/19 "2010-07-20T23:55:14Z")
> [@Animastryfe](#): > > Which issues should I read in order to eternally fear him? Everyone else is answering the why question, so I will try to take on the what question. Without question read [The Killing Joke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke) If you can track down [this collection](http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Joker-Stories-Ever-Comics/dp/0930289366) it is well worth the price of admission also, and contains my personal favorite Joker story “The Laughing Fish”. More than that, it shows you a lot of variations on what the joker can be and has been over the years. It’s a great primer. I also liked [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Man_Who_Laughs). But I really liked Ed Brubaker And rounding things out would be[Arkham Assylum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkham_Asylum:_A_Serious_House_on_Serious_Earth) which is…different. But good. Read those, then watch some [Batman: The Animated Series](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf7Tbt9ewY8) joker episodes (Mark Hamil was the definitive Joker) and then you should be hooked. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307/20 "2010-07-21T00:03:43Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Without question read [The Killing Joke](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Killing_Joke) I actually wouldn’t recommend that to someone who’s not already familiar with the characters involved. I have a friend who read it without the background, and I spent a lot of time explaining stuff to her, and she still found it more confusing than it was worth. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-joker-so-dangerous/547307.md?page=2)