Why is the metric system better than the imperial system?

Notice I said “carpenters,” not “cabinet makers.” When working with them I’d get told to just tell them what I wanted and the approximate dimensions and they’d work out what the dimensions SHOULD be. :slight_smile: And framers, well, we won’t talk about them.

No, the approximations wouldn’t be so easily made in metric–try it.

Don’t I know it! Done it for a living, bro.

Should’ve done it in Autocad, where the model isn’t in a specific system, just “units.” Want one unit to equal a parsec?. No problem–will that be in decimal parsecs or fractional? Drew it while thinking in millimeters but need the final drawing in inches? Change the scale factor of the dimensions or scale down the model the appropriate amount.

I don’t want you metric types to toss away a system you are comfortable with. I just want you to understand that we function quite well doing things the way we do them and that, just as you don’t want us forcing our method down your throat, we’d appreciate the same respect from you.

What are you talking about?

I don’t know what a standard lengths metric mills cut in, but let’s say 2.4m, which seems likely for a number of reasons. So our 21.34" shelves become 54.2cm. So again it’s perfectly obvious that we’ll be getting 4 shelves to a board with comfortable excess.

I did draw it in a cad, but it was done up in inches for reasonably obvious reasons - desktop was 2 1x8 and a 1x10 glued edge to edge, so right aways the width is fixed. And it wouldn’t have helped to figure out the cutting list by converting to metric at the end, because I would have been left with godawful non-round numbers with long decimals to divy up amongst 96" boards, which isn’t a round length in metric either. The plans would have had to have been done up using metric to begin with to gain an advantage, but that wasn’t really feasible, since board widths factored in all over the place, and were all 19.05mm (3/4"), which would have been a nightmare to draw even in a cad.

I don’t think you’ll find many people wanting to force others to change. But it’s just simply the fact that many calculations are simplified in metric. I know perfectly well that one quickly learns to do the more complex math with relative ease, having earned a living at rough carpentry for a while myself (truss plant, framing). I’ve just seen people mess up calculations occasionally where they probably wouldn’t have if we’d been framing in metric (not gonna happen in Canada till our mills turn out metric lumber, which in turn won’t happen till the US export market converts). Obviously people would screw up calculations in metric, too, but it wouldn’t happen as often.

Over 100 posts in this thread and nobody has called the OP on this statement?

It’s hard to pin an exact date on when the U.S. “started going metric,” but it was a heckuva lot more than 25 or 30 years. How about the Metric Act of 1866 (Public Law 39-183), which authorized the use of the metric system here? How about the American Society of Civil Engineers starting metric advocacy in 1876? Perhaps the United States being one of the original seventeen signatory nations to the Metre Convention of 1875, which established what is now known as the SI system?

We “started going metric” not 25 or 30 years ago, but at least 100 years earlier than that.

And, by the way, people in this thread keep mentioning lumber. If you call a 2x4 a 4x8 (centimeter) instead, it’s a lot closer to its actual dimensions of about 1.5"x3.5". Let’s call our “one inch” pine 2cm pine, since that’s a lot closer to its actual thickness of 3/4".

If I hear the argument that it’s “easier” to refer to a 17" monitor than to call it a 431.8mm monitor one more time, I’ll barf. Your typical 17" monitor is less than 16" diagonal anyway. Call it a 40cm monitor. You’re closer to the actual dimensions and it’s a round number to boot.

My mother had a terrible time dealing with metric until I told her to just approximate. When you hear “meter” think “yard.” When you hear “liter” think “quart.” When you hear “kilometer” think “mile and a half.” It’s close enough for daily use.

Not good enough. Regardless of what you call it, the stud is 1.5"x3.5", and that matters. Even more importantly, the sheet of OSB is 4’x8’, and if you want studs to line up on the seams, and you do, you’d better frame on 16" centres. Metric approximations won’t cut it. You can’t convert construction to metric until you convert the mills.

That’s not such a good plan, actually. :wink:

No offence taken, Bytegeist. We may have had a bit of oscillation between “USA=anti-science” and “We’re #1 neener neener”, but I think trading cites may have calmed things down and we’re probably in agreement.

Actually, your link, which directly answers GorillaMan’s question, is more relevant to the current state of affairs than was mine, although they both show interesting data. Now that you’ve withdrawn the “trouncing” claim, I’ll actually concede your point! :wink:

0.75 of an hour is easy to imagine or to convert to minutes, but what if it was 465 km – 4.65 hours? Not so easy. It is easier to divide a measurement of minutes into units of 60, then tack on the remainder. Find the nearest multiple of 60 then adding what’s left is easy; calculating 0.55 or 0.85 of an hour is more difficult.

All very ingenious calculations, but my point was to address an earlier contention that imperial units could be as easily scaled up as metric units, which is simply not the case.

To take a further example, imagine pouring shots for a group of drinkers. If I need 30mL per glass and 151 drinkers, it’s easy to calculate that I’ll need 4530mL of booze, which is 4.53L . If OTOH, I was pouring shots of 1 fluid ounce, I’d need 151 fluid ounces–which is how many pints/quarts/gallons/hogsheads, exactly?

(Yes, I know alcohol in the US is sold in metric volumes, this is just an illustration.)

A large volume/length/mass expressed in small units of measurement is often a meaningless number (e.g. 15000 cm, 15000 inches). The fact remains that’s much easier to convert metric units into their larger equivalents to obtain a meaningful measurement than it is scale-up imperial units.

That problem is due to the base-60 time system, and is equally awkward with metric or imperial distances.

Yes. That was my point back on page 2. It is of course a happy coincidence that a common cruising speed is 60mph, which makes it easy to calculate driving times under base-60 time.

Surely that would make base-85 time far more useful? :wink:

But it is only a happy coincidence for those who travel a lot at common cruising speed. Measuring in metric units creates a happy coincidence for those of us who rarely travel on open highways.

4.65 hours is 4 1/2 hours and a bit. Probably closer to 5 to 5 1/2 if you factor in rest stops and the like. Theres no need for such precision when your driving and if there is, then its easy enough to figure out anyway. 0.5 of an hour is 30 minutes, 0.1 is 6 minutes and 0.05 is 3 minutes. So 4 hours, 39 minutes overall.

(deadpan voice) Nobody likes a showoff, InvisibleWombat.

Of course, the Metric Act of 1866 merely allowed the use of metric measurements; it didn’t require them. And a fat lot of change either the ASCE’s recommendation or signing that treaty did. No, I was referring to the Metric Conversion Act of 1975, which was a government mandate that the US convert completely in ten years. You may have noticed that it never happened, showing that you don’t have to be a Gandhi or Martin Luther King to have civil disobedience work for you.

I stumbled on this article which explains in an amusing manner why full metrification didn’t happen here. He makes many of the same points people here have made. I plan to track down verification of what he says about the cost of hard conversion and the relative accuracy of the two systems according to Airbus and will check back if I find anything.

The OP said that the U.S. conversion to metric started 25 or 30 years ago. That’s what I was refuting. The conversion began a long time ago, gained a huge amount of steam in the 1970’s, and crashed and burned in the 80’s. I agree with all of that.

A whole lot of people seem to think that the U.S. just discovered metric in the 1970’s, though, and I was trying to point out that even our congress (generally the last place in the country to notice progress) was aware of it 100 years before that.

The only logical reason I can see for sticking with Imperial measurements is momentum. If we were starting from scratch today, nobody would even think of creating such a haphazard system. Unfortunately, there are measurements we’re going to be stuck with for a long time (the 16-inch stud spacing someone mentioned above, for example). We’re not stuck, however, with a lot of other lumber dimensions. Plywood thickness, for example, has changed fairly recently. No reason it couldn’t change again.

Ah good. I’m glad I could restore my reputation — from incorrigible public ass to occasional public ass.

But I must stand by the “Canadian moose merde” phrase in my earlier post, purple language or not. It’s my favorite thing I’ve written all month. (© 2004 Bytegeist. Hereby released for general use under a BSD-style license.)

Some good articles on both sides, and I liked the article posted by dropzone. I do think there is some confusion here, however, that requires a little good philosophy to clear up.

Whether we convert or not, we still have the problem of standard sizes.

For historical reasons, the US has been built–industry and construction–on a set of standard sizes denominated in inches, pounds, etc. But the fact that they are so demoninated is in reality a superficial issue. Those sizes were chosen for a reason, or for no reason at all, and we are stuck with them. We should change those sizes IF the cost savings justify it, and we should keep them if they do not. And if we change those sizes, they should be changed to ideal sizes, which may or may not be denominated in “even” metric units (although, if so denominating them saves costs also, then that should be taken into consideration too).

The “meta” argument is that we should convert to base 12.

People talk as thought the metric system is ideal simply because it’s base ten. But we can one-up that argument by pointing out that base 10 is not ideal in the first place. Base 12 is clearly superior because it has more factors (12, 6, 4, 3, 2 instead of just 10, 5, 2) and has non-repeating, single-digit duodecimals for 1/3 (0.4) and 1/4 (0.3).

People used to argue for a conversion to base 12, but they don’t much any more. The costs would be just too great, both in terms of the economy and culture (every number in every book would become archaic).

But the same is true for converting rigorously to metric, though to a lesser extent. People have done so where it is profitable and useful, and have avoided it where it is not. That’s also why we still use QWERTY keyboards: the initial cost of converting to a better system is so great that the NPV of the whole project is negative, even when you look at the long term.

The metric system itself is old and clunky.
It is, after all, a system that was designed in the 18th century. It’s sole original virtue was the use of base ten and the relation of one unit to another (the fact that modern science has continued to build on it is another thing in its favor, but not really a virtue of the system itself). Whether the units themselves were good for what they were designed for was really a matter of luck, and in many cases the luck was bad, and the intentions of the designers unrealized.

For example, the gram was rejected as the main unit of weight because it’s too small; science went with the kilogram. Sometimes booze is labeled in cl, but for the most part the middling centi and deci units for macro items have remained unused. (Micro is another matter–see below.)

Keeping this in mind, metric fails where Imp./US standard succeeds in many cases. In this thread people have said that it’s all a matter of what system you are used to, that neither is more intuitive. I disagree. Feet continue to be used, but why are decimeters not? Simple: the decimeter is too small to be useful for big things, too big to be useful for small things, and there is no nice chunky fraction (1/4 or 1/3, say) of a meter available. My feeling is that people use cm for measuring, say, the height of people and whatnot simply because they are in a metric society and, although deci is in theory an option, cm is the lesser of the two evils. The kilogram, however, is chunky enough to be useful.

Chunkiness is important and explains why other almost wholly converted contries still use some old measurements. In Japan they still use tsubo (3.306 m[sup]2[/sup]) for land area because it relates well to plot sizes in Japanese cities. The gou and shou are still used for sake and shouchou volumes. Kimono silk is still sold by the tan. And if I’ve heard correctly, China still uses a ton of the old measurements alongside the metric units.

Kilometer has probably not overtaken the mile for a very simple reason: it’s a long, cold-sounding word, whereas mile is short, familiar, and sounds good in literature and poetry. Branding is important. The same goes for kilogram and pound.

If we were going to design a system of measurement today, I doubt we’d create the same units. It would probably be wise to create a parallel and compatible folk version of the system with some units not in base ten for greater usability. But, then again, base 10 has few factors, which brings us back to the problem noted above.

Metric is a hit in micro, a flop in macro.
Chunkiness and intuitiveness simply don’t matter with micro measurements, since we can’t see the stuff anyway. The miligram and micrometer (often branded “micron” for ease of saying) are hits, and the nanometer is simply great for what it does. Here the metric system reigns supreme. It’s a needed thing.

But metric simply isn’t needed for macro units, and never was. The reason is that the multipliers are useless. Once you have mile, ton, and gallon, you’re done and you don’t need another unit. Nor does anyone need megagram and gigameter: they simply aren’t used.

Precision at these levels isn’t required, and if you have to convert from metric to US, you simply convert. Standard sizes aren’t an issue. Nothing is. That’s why miles, pounds, and gallons are just fine for everyday use.

In conclusion
Metric has won where it does the most good: in the microworld and in complicated physics and engineering calculations. Elsewhere it doesn’t offer an advantage.

Not true. Modern science uses the metric and SI systems because of their inherent virtues of equivalency of units.

You’ve contradicted yourself.

These are not valid arguments if you’re prepared to look beyond the borders of the USA. Plenty of countries manage fine with an extra few syllables (and anyway, have you never heard people talk of ‘Ks’ or ‘kilos’?)

Well, let’s be clear what we’re talking about here. Do you mean converting to a base-12 system of measurements? Or converting our entire practice of mathematics to base-12? If the former, the losses will outweigh the gains, since the nice conversions between simple fractions and decimals are trivial compared to the costs of having to multiply and divide by 12 all the time. If you mean the latter, then you have to realize that the costs of converting all our mathematical practices to base-12 would be so monumental that we can’t even imagine most of them. I would imagine that children could be taught to think in base-12 if started at an early age, but I would also imagine that most adults would never be able to make the switch. And then there’s the myriad of data - economic, scientific, etc., that would all be in need of translation. Plus you need to invent two new digits, and names for them. Have fun convincing people we should do that.

That’s nice. But you’re wrong. :wink: Really, it’s just what you’re used to. Seriously.

Interesting theory, but I never hear people talk about kilometres. They talk about klicks or Ks.

Oh, but it does offer an advantage. It just might not offer an advantage compelling enough to incur the initial cost of switching.

Being a diehard U.S. Standard user, I can’t find anyone who wants to buy my1.378-inch camera. For you metricians, that’s 35-millimeter.

But seriously, one of the factors that canceled the most recent conversion in the USA was the cost of changing all the highway signs. Just think, with 45,000 miles of Interstate highways alone, that’s 72,000 kilometres. If the new distance reference (formerly mile) markers cost a $100 each to install, and there’s one on each side of the road, that’s $14,400, 000, just for them. Then there’s the cost to change all the speed limit signs, and all the exit numbers, at least where they equal the mileage distance for that route within the state. And the federal law that was going to mandate the conversion stated that no federal funds would be spent for the purpose. Talk about unfunded mandates.

A gradual conversion of road signs isn’t impossible, by any means. No sign lasts more than 10 or 20 years anyway - and the general rule is that the metric ones say “xx km”, and if they don’t, they’re in miles. I can’t see that anybody could claim it’s confusing, and there’s no need for it to cost much more than simple replacements.

I think you have it backwards. I think the metric measures were made to be the rough equivalent of English measures.

When my dad ran track in the 70s, he said the standard distances were 110, 220, 440, and 880 yards. When you break it down, it is exactly 1/16, 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 of a mile, respectively (1 mile = 1760 yards).

When tracks started measuring distances in meters, 100 meters is close to 110 yards, and so on. Which is why the “mile” in modern track is 1600 meters (when it should really be 1607 something).

As for the 1500, maybe it had to do with the perception that women are weaker. When I ran high school track (in the 90s) the men ran 1600 and 3200 meters as their longest races, but the women ran 1500 and 3000 meters.