# Why is the monkey gesture racist towards those of African heritage? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 9, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525 "2012-12-09T19:48:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![azraiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@azraiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/azraiel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/21 "2012-12-10T07:42:09Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > I hope you can see the problem with this. A problem with humanity? Of course. Does it contraindicate our reality? No. ---
**Author:** ![blueslipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@blueslipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueslipper)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/22 "2012-12-10T07:51:16Z")
> [@azraiel](#): > > Please tell me that you don’t really have a degree in anthropology. If you do, you should return it. So it is such a bad question that I have to return my degree. Could you contact the university for me to determine how I would do that please? ---
**Author:** ![azraiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@azraiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/azraiel)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/23 "2012-12-10T08:12:49Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > So it is such a bad question that I have to return my degree. Could you contact the university for me to determine how I would do that please? Frankly, it is a terrible question. Any education in anthropology should come with a thorough background in race as reification, and a solid grounding of the historical situation wherein it came to be. It’s no accident that [Boas](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boas) argues that “race” doesn’t exist. To understand anthropology you must understand history. To understand history, you must understand anthropology. Your initial question and position was ignorant beyond belief. And yes, were I your instructor and you presented what you have so far to me, I’d flunk you. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/24 "2012-12-10T09:48:48Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > So I am little confused that racists in Britain use that gesture towards Africans. Just for the record, this isn’t a peculiarly British thing – it’s pretty much universal amongst white racists. There have been numerous similar incidents at games across Europe – more so than in the UK. Throwing bananas onto the pitch is also popular. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/25 "2012-12-10T15:01:32Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > I will spell it out then. Why when someone makes monkey gesture at Bush, it is an insult to him, but if someone makes monkey gesture at Sebastien Bassong, it is racist? Racist football supporters don’t make monkey gestures at players because they are stupid - and there are plenty of those (Wayne Rooney would be an obvious target). They exclusively make monkey gestures at black players and only because they are black, thus making it a racial issue. Si ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/26 "2012-12-10T15:05:12Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > Wow I really have some copped some abuse haven’t I. You asked a rather ignorant question, but received a courteous and correct answer. You responded with arrogance and yet more ignorance. That’s what you’re getting the flack for, not the question itself. > [@blueslipper](#): > > I will spell it out then. Why when someone makes monkey gesture at Bush, it is an insult to him, but if someone makes monkey gesture at Sebastien Bassong, it is racist? It’s already been explained to you several times. It’s because there’s a very long history of identifying Africans as a race as being subhuman. There is no such history of identifying Bush, his family, or his ethnic group as chimpanzees. Got it? ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/27 "2012-12-10T15:24:06Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > I will spell it out then. Why when someone makes monkey gesture at Bush, it is an insult to him, but if someone makes monkey gesture at Sebastien Bassong, it is racist? Your faux-naivety is far from charming. Monkey gestures aren’t ‘crypto-racism’ - we’ve heard of the ‘dog whistle’ approach (not-so hidden messages to fellow bigots); in contrast monkey gestures are a blaring vuvuzela. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/28 "2012-12-10T15:40:53Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > I hope you can see the problem with this. I think **azraiel** ’s example was a little off-putting myself – the part that’s being left out is context. Comparing a white person to a chimp isn’t racist because there’s no historical pattern of racism focused on comparing white people to apes. Comparing a black person to a chimp is usually going to be seen as racist because there _is_ is historical pattern of racism focused on comparing black people to apes. If you really feel the need to compare a black person to a monkey, the onus is really, really on you to demonstrate that you’re speaking to characteristics specific to that individual and not merely demeaning the person because of their race. It’s a very loaded comparison, and not merely due to “political correctness” or people being touchy. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/29 "2012-12-10T15:43:24Z")
Well, the main points have been covered, so to sweep up some of the minutia… > [@blueslipper](#): > > I do not think that arresting idiots who make this gesture at football games is the best way to reduce/remove racism from football. I am not sure what to do instead, but I think you cannot arrest these people. Racist chants and general hooliganism used to be endemic to English football, and are much, much rarer now thanks to such policies. Note that hate speech is not protected speech in the UK (a policy most people here agree with). As well as arresting the racists other actions include fines or worse for the football club. These work well also because most fans are fiercely loyal and would not do anything to harm their club (and indeed would not turn a blind eye to some idiot doing racist chants). > [@Trinopus](#): > > Is there a physical gesture – a hand-sign or the like? – or is “gesture” here a figure of speech? > > (I have a co-worker who does a really good “siamang walk,” a loose-legged, arms-overhead shamble that looks a little like a monkey swinging through the lianas. I don’t believe he intends it to be racist; it’s more “naturalistic” than editorial. It’s like doing a robot walk or a zombie shuffle.) Try to touch your right armpit with your right hand, and your left armpit with your left. Now sort of bounce from foot to foot. That’s the sort of cartoon monkey gesture. So yes, accurately trying to imitate a monkey is something quite different. (can’t believe I’m giving instructions and deploring the gesture in the same post…) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/30 "2012-12-10T15:54:35Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > So it is such a bad question that I have to return my degree. Could you contact the university for me to determine how I would do that please? Would that be Acme Online University & Barber College? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/31 "2012-12-10T15:56:15Z")
And why is it racist when a bunch of guys dress up in white sheets and burn a cross? People burn wooden things in their fireplaces all the time, and even Charlie Brown dressed in a sheet on Halloween. I guess Charlie Brown is a racist too? What about Snoopy? Woodstock? How come Franklin never complained? Look, I’m just asking questions here, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/32 "2012-12-11T09:20:09Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > Wow I really have some copped some abuse haven’t I. I think grammar is the poor thing that’s been abused most in this thread. Won’t someone think of the poor abducted commas? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/33 "2012-12-11T19:09:22Z")
> [@romadea](#): > > Comparing a black person to a monkey has sinister historical connotations. Sure, you can compare white people to monkeys, too. But…when you compare a black person to a monkey…even if you don’t intend it to be racist, it has to at least occur to you that it could be construed that way. As Colibri pointed out, there is a long history in many Western countries of comparing black people to monkeys using pseudoscience, propaganda, (gestures??) etc., in order to belittle, ridicule, and/or justify the oppression of said black people. And because of this, no doubt, it is a matter of extreme sensitivity. When I lived in the Congo in 1962 some reasonably high level UN person called an aide a monkey. I don’t believed it was meant to be hostile. He got his ass booted out of the country, ordered by high levels of the government. When I worked for AT&T an internal magazine published an illustration of the region around the Atlantic, with a gaucho in South America and a monkey in Africa. The editor got fired and the magazine got shut down. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/34 "2012-12-11T20:34:17Z")
😕 Am I the only person who doesn’t know what “the monkey gesture” is? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/35 "2012-12-11T21:10:32Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > 😕 Am I the only person who doesn’t know what “the monkey gesture” is? I had to [google](https://www.google.ca/search?q=monkey+gesture&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=E9X&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=FJ3HUKzYMcm1ygGekoHYCg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAA&biw=1240&bih=828) it. ---
**Author:** ![taskmgr.exe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@taskmgr.exe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/taskmgr.exe)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/36 "2012-12-11T21:36:52Z")
Do you know any Arab or Turk who gets offended when you call them “Kebaaaaaab”? ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525/37 "2012-12-11T21:49:00Z")
Most brown people have been equated to monkeys. There was an incident a year or two ago where some white politician called his…cameraman? Who was of Indian descent a “macaca”. Let me see if I can google it. Ah, here it is. George Allen, > [@](#): > > On August 11, 2006, at a campaign stop in Breaks, Virginia, near the Kentucky border, Allen twice used the word macaca to refer to S.R. Sidarth, an Indian-American, who was filming the event as a “tracker” for the opposing Webb campaign. Allen apologized, first saying he intended to say “mohawk,” an incorrect reference to Sidarth’s hair cut. He then revised his story, saying he meant to call Sidarth “caca” and then claiming that he did not know the meaning of the word.[106] In 2008, The Washington Post speculated that, were it not for this double utterance, Allen would have been a strong candidate for the 2008 GOP presidential nomination.[107][108] Macaca is a pejorative epithet used by francophone colonialists in Africa for the native black population. It is derived from the name of the genus comprising macaque monkeys whose name has also itself been used as a racial slur. Allen’s mother was born in North Africa. The macaque’s genus name, Macaca, is a latinization of the Bantu (Kongo) ma-kako, meaning “monkey”. From his Wiki page. It’s basically just signaling the white prediliction to think, over the centuries, that anyone who was not just like them was less than human. Now things have changed, but when a white man looks at a brown person and says “monkey” about a gazillion years of history come into play. British have no excuse. The things the British Raj thought about Indians in their 400 years of ruling are pretty bad…that Indians were savages and rapists and couldn’t possibly be educated or brought up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-monkey-gesture-racist-towards-those-of-african-heritage/643525.md?page=1)