# Why is the movie "The Wizard of Oz" stereotypically associated with gay male culture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 7, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666 "2006-08-07T10:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/41 "2006-08-08T12:01:44Z")
jimbeam – Do you also find sexual images in Winnie the Pooh, The Wind in the Willows, The Jungle Books, or any other classic children’s works that you haven’t really read closely but know from movies? I only ask because you seem to be projecting a lot into The Wizard of Oz. It says much more about how your mind is working than about the objective content of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/42 "2006-08-08T13:52:16Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] characters who were male most of the book but eventually were discovered to be females under a curse which was broken at the end [/QUOTE] Thank you, **Wendell**. Clearly what you’ve described, although it didn’t have a name at the time Baum was writing, corresponds to what we now call transsexual, not gay. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/43 "2006-08-08T14:53:00Z")
Johanna writes: \> Thank you, Wendell. Clearly what you’ve described, although it didn’t have a \> name at the time Baum was writing, corresponds to what we now call \> transsexual, not gay. I should note that the various interesting things that happen to characters in the Oz books are never described in a medical or a psychological manner. It’s always a matter of magic. In the case I mentioned, it’s a young princess who a witch was mad at, so the witch decided to put the princess under a curse which turned her into a boy of about the same age. The boy is a major character in one of the books, and at the end of that book the curse is broken allowing him/her to become the princess once again. (I think I’ve described this right, but I’d have to get out my Oz books to be sure.) In any case, this wasn’t a transsexual character in the modern medical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/44 "2006-08-08T15:13:15Z")
The “magic transsexual” item that comes to mind is Tip \> Ozma; I believe Baum repeated the gimmick in a second story, with a variation, though I have no cite on that. As for the Dorothy Parker item, the _only_ place I’ve ever seen it is in the Wikipedia note and people quoting it. Perhaps our Wikipedia-admin. Dopers might want to take a look at that and either get a cite for it from the writer, or convert it to an unsubstantiated allegation? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/45 "2006-08-08T15:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] In any case, this wasn’t a transsexual character in the modern medical sense. [/QUOTE] The medical procedures hadn’t yet been invented. So full transition belonged to the realms of mythology and fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/46 "2006-08-08T15:32:09Z")
[QUOTE=DrFidelius] Do you also find sexual images in Winnie the Pooh, The Wind in the Willows, The Jungle Books, or any other classic children’s works [/QUOTE] Lessee - Christopher Robin and Mowgli are both young boys who spend a lot of time with _bears_ - they’re practically NAMBLA infomercials! And the less said about those “confirmed bachelors” Rat and Mole and their cosy riverside condo, the better - except to recall the time Rat nearly ran off with a sailor! It’s there if you know where to look 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/47 "2006-08-08T15:44:59Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] I forget, wasn’t the director gay as well? [/QUOTE] Far from it! The director was Victor Fleming. However, one of the movie’s three screenwriters, Edgar Allan Woolf, was gay. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/48 "2006-08-08T15:58:02Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] During the filming of Oz, Clark Gable ran the director (Cuko?) off the set due to some issues regarding his and Gable’s homo/bi-sexual past. [/QUOTE] Clark Gable had nothing to do with George Cukor being replaced as director of _Gone With the Wind_. No actor, not even Gable, had that power in the 1930s, when all actors were contract players. They simply had no such leverage, and Gable certainly didn’t at Selznick International Pictures, where he was on loan from M-G-M. From a private letter from journalist Susan Myrick to Margaret Mitchell in February 1939, within days of Cukor’s announced departure from GWTW: > [@](#): > > George [Cukor] finally told me all about it. He hated [leaving the production] very much he said but he could not do otherwise. In effect he said he is an honest craftsman and he cannot do a job unless he knows it is a good job and he feels the present job is not right. For days, he told me he has looked at the rushes and felt he was failing… the thing did not click as it should. Gradually he became convinced that the script was the trouble… David [Selznick], himself, thinks HE is writing the script… And George has continually taken script from day to day, compared the [Oliver] Garrett-Selznick version with the [Sidney] Howard, groaned and tried to change some parts back to the Howard script. But he seldom could do much with the scene… So George just told David he would not work any longer if the script was not better and he wanted the Howard script back. David told George he was a director — not an author and he (David) was the producer and the judge of what is a good script… George said he was a director and a damn good one and he would not let his name go out over a lousy picture… And bull-headed David said “OK get out!” Selznick had already been unhappy with Cukor (“a very expensive luxury”) for not being more receptive to directing other Selznick assignments, even though Cukor had remained on salary since early 1937; and in a confidential memo written in September 1938 (four months before principal photography began on GWTW), Selznick flirted with the idea of replacing him with Victor Fleming. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/49 "2006-08-08T17:06:26Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] The medical procedures hadn’t yet been invented. So full transition belonged to the realms of mythology and fantasy. [/QUOTE] Yes, but Tip never wanted to be a girl, or thought he was a girl, IIRC. His transformation into Ozma was as much a surprise to him as everyone else. It was a very good disguise (the Tip persona), no Gender or Sexual issues in it. [QUOTE=Otto] Dorothy felt rejection and alienation which led into her singing OTR. She also felt some rejection because Aunt Em and Uncle Henry allowed Miss Gulch to take Toto. Each of the three Oz companions believes himself to be deficient in some fundamental way and most pronounced the Lion is completely unable to fulfil his rightful role in the forest “family.” It’s not IMHO an overarching theme of the movie (I’ve only read wo of the books and didn’t care much one way or the other about them) but there is a thread of it there [/QUOTE] Interesting. I can see that. Even more interesting (to me, if no one else) is that I’ve always seen Dorothy as a spoiled brat who rejected her loving family, not the other way 'round. Playing Aunt Em on stage only reinforced that. At the end, Dorothy learns her lesson and realizes how much her family loves her, and has always loved her, and that she didn’t need to go anywhere at all to find family - she had it all along. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/50 "2006-08-08T17:38:12Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] Cukor was the original director on “OZ” as well. He left to do GWTW when Fleming took over. [/QUOTE] [Richard Thorpe](http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0861703/) (a native Kansan) was the original director of _The Wizard of Oz_, and directed it for two weeks. After he left, George Cukor, at producer Mervyn LeRoy’s request, looked at the existing footage, and worked on it for three days, doing revamped makeup and costume tests of Judy Garland. Victor Fleming directed it for four months. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/51 "2006-08-08T17:48:03Z")
Did Gable have anything to do with Cukor losing his job. Depends on who you ask. One of the directors of OZ, Cukor was undoubtedly homosexual. Do I find sexual images in other children’s books? I didn’t see these (in Oz) until the OP asked the question and I started researching the topic. Just because you choose to dismiss the possibility doesn’t make them false. and I resent the implications of this statement. > [@](#): > > It says much more about how your mind is working than about the objective content of the story. **DrFidelius** this is GQ and I have yet to insult anyone and the findings I presented in the thread are responses I have found that others have made before. The OP simply asked : There is a stereotype that gay males like Judy Garland\*, but that doesn’t make much sense to me, either. What is the history behind these associations? (and The Wizard of Oz) Answering the OP, that’s all I am attempting to do. Sort them out as false or true or simply rumors and speculation as you like, that’s irrelevant. The fact is that these ideas are not new and are part of the history behind the associations to which the OP was inquiring. What I believe is totally irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/52 "2006-08-08T17:53:23Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Well, Judy’s father’s “association with the gay community” goes back quite a bit farther than that… (he was gay) . [/QUOTE] I had heard it was more bi-Sexual? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/53 "2006-08-08T18:08:29Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] One of the directors of OZ, Cukor was undoubtedly homosexual./QUOTE]Not one of the scenes in _Wizard of Oz_ was directed by Cukor. He worked on the production for three days during the interim while producer Mervyn LeRoy was looking for a replacement for director Richard Thorpe. He did hair and makeup tests of Judy Garland, and advised her to remember she was playing a girl from Kansas and “not to act in a fancy-schmancy way.” Cukor didn’t write the script, either. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/54 "2006-08-08T18:39:15Z")
Yeah I know what Cukors contribution was. He changed Dorothy’s hair color from Blond and took the makeup off her face to make her look like a poor Kansas girl. A few other costume adjustments etc. I’ll try to make my point again. What are the gay associations in OZ? the lead actress was a gay rights supporter her father was … her daughter is … the temporary director was … There are several metaphors and scenes in the movie and books that MIGHT be interpreted as gay and obviously HAVE been by many over the years. The author Baum has a history of Oz films which include sexual inuendo. There are just a few of the associations which can be made. These and others, whether they are fact, fiction or fantasy matters not. They are undoubtedly ideas that have been connected to the film for years. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/55 "2006-08-08T19:05:11Z")
jimbeam, have you had a chance to look through the books and substantiate any of your claims yet? I also don’t remember quite a bit of what you claim is in there, although I think I only read the frirst three books, so perhaps they are in others. In particular, I do not remember, and would appreciate cites (page numbers would be great, chapters if you can’t do that) for: Your claims in post 7: > [@](#): > > You realize this movie was based on a series of short stories. As was pointed out, this is not the case. > [@](#): > > In the book there are several reference to the queer people and queer this and that. Can you show me anywhere the current meaning of “queer” was used, and not the contomporaneous meaning “strange”. > [@](#): > > The lion really is a daisy in the book and talks about feeling gay. WTF? Daisy? Again, a cite for this, please. While you’re at it, how about a cite that daisies are gay or associated with gay culture before the book was written. > [@](#): > > The tin man cries at the drop of a hat I don’t understand what this has to do with gay people. Surely you’re not saying gay people cry more often than straight people? > [@](#): > > and Dorothy is at first kissed by the good witch of the north. Romantically? Cite, please. My grandmother kisses me every time I see her. I’m not into homoerotic incest. > [@](#): > > Then later practically falls in love with a princess she meets and later is kissed by the good witch of the south. Again, romantically? in Post 9: > [@](#): > > But the passage was about the cowardly lion skipping through the flowers talking about how happy and gay he was feeling. Not too macho, especially for a lion. Again, what does this have to do with gay people? The question was about homosexuals, not gender norms. In Post 27: > [@](#): > > Is the tin man gay? I dunno, he had a fiance but broke up with her. This may well be the case. Can you cite the passage please, because I don’t remember it. I also don’t see why it’s evidence he was gay. > [@](#): > > He is highly emotional despite his lack of a heart. He cries at practically every little thing and is somewhat embarrased by this. Doesn’t mean he’s homosexual but it may be a trait some folks can appreciate. Again, so what? What does this have to do with being gay? > [@](#): > > The FACT is that Dorothy’s companions have characteristics that considered by society then and now as less than manly. AH! So it’s a book for children about adults that act like children. It’s a book about growing up and creatures who haven’t quite found the resources to grow up yet. At the end of the book, they become grown-ups, after being put through trials and finding that they possess the courage, love and intelligence of adults. This seems a much more likely moral for a children’s author than some gender twisting homosexual agenda. > [@](#): > > Your absolute statement “but nobody at the time they were published thought of the books as being about homosexuality” > You know this. > Surely you don’t think there was no gay culture then. There was no gay culture like there is now. There were certainly not children’s books with overtly gay themes the way there are now. I don’t doubt the OP’s assumption that the movie The Wizard of Oz is nowadays associated with gay culture. But I don’t think you’ve made a convincing argument that the books were when published. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/56 "2006-08-08T19:20:08Z")
> [@jimbeam](#): > > Did Gable have anything to do with Cukor losing his job. Depends on who you ask. **Walloon** has cited two primary sources which state that Gable did not play a part in Cukor’s firing. Please cite your primary sources in support of your position. [QUOTE=jimbeam] the lead actress was a gay rights supporter [/quote] I’m unaware of any particularly strong public stance taken by La Garland on the topic of gay rights. Other than marrying at least one and allegedly dallying on the Sapphic side of the street on the rare occasion herself, the connection between her and the gay community was largely one-sided. > [@jimbeam](#): > > her father was … Her father was gay or bisexual, and publicly indiscrete (the story goes that the family had to leave Minnesota because of his indiscretions), but again made no public statements on the topic of gay rights of which I’m aware. > [@jimbeam](#): > > her daughter is … Copmpletely irrelevant since her daughter was not born at the time TWOO was made. > [@jimbeam](#): > > the temporary director was … George Cukor was not a public gay rights supporter for the days he was attached to TWOO and IIRC was never publicly demonstrative on the topic. > [@jimbeam](#): > > What I believe is totally irrelevant. Then maybe you should stop stating opinions in the fact-based GQ. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/57 "2006-08-08T19:48:55Z")
Since the OP said this thread may end up in IMHO at the very beginning, he obviously had the foresight to realize the question called for opinions as well as facts. Dismiss the rumors deny the facts, whatever. I guess you’re all right… there is no association with gays and Oz. They really don’t care about the movie or Judy Garland. Judy never said or did anything to support the gay community. Gays have no reason to see similarities to their struggles and the Oz characters. There is NO possible way to interpret anything in OZ as such. Cukor being homosexual and associated to the film would have been ignored by gays at the time and later as well. Baum really didn’t allow any sexual inuendo in his first Oz flicks. All the examples of characters in drag was purely innocent. etc. etc. I say **Uncle** All better now? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/58 "2006-08-08T20:29:28Z")
The content of the movie alone is the major factor in its becoming a gay icon — the disassociation of the main character from her drab surroundings, where nobody appreciates her, into a colorful fantasy world where she’s the center of everybody’s attention. Add to that the usual gay worship of singing divas: Maria Callas, Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, Diana Ross, Madonna. Cukor’s minor association to the movie was irrelevant (not to mention _unknown_ until long after it had achieve gay icon status.) You don’t see big gay followings for _David Copperfield_, _The Philadelphia Story_, or _Pat and Mike_, pictures he actually directed. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/59 "2006-08-08T21:46:02Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] I say **Uncle** All better now? [/QUOTE] Poor little flower…dropped her petals and folded her tent. Oh wait, wrong gay icon. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/60 "2006-08-08T22:06:35Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Poor little flower…dropped her petals and folded her tent. Oh wait, wrong gay icon. [/QUOTE] 😃 Actually I’m just in a lot of pain today and don’t feel like arguing right now. I’ll be back asap w/ some cites. I’ve taken a couple hydrocodone some vicodine some acetominophine and some sodium naproxin… can’t get rid of it. I’ll see ya later~JB Maybe that’s what I’ll try next, a big glass of JB [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666.md?page=4)