# Why is the movie "The Wizard of Oz" stereotypically associated with gay male culture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 7, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666 "2006-08-07T10:02:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/61 "2006-08-08T23:06:25Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] I’ve taken a couple hydrocodone some vicodine some acetominophine and some sodium naproxin… [/QUOTE] Judy? Is that you? ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/62 "2006-08-09T00:57:43Z")
I’m not buying the angle that “Judy was a gay rights supporter, _ergo_ gays like _The Wizard of Oz._” If it was about Judy Garland, including or not including or father or daughter, why not “A Star Is Born” or “Girl Crazy” or “Gay Purr-ee?” If it’s all about Oz, why the _Judy Garland_ version of the movie? Why not the 1902 stage play or the 1910 film, or the 1921 or 1925 versions of Oz? Also bear in mind that it didn’t break even when it came out — it made $3M when it came out, but it cost $3.8M to make. (For the time, admittedly, that’s still one heck of a lot of tickets sold.) There have been plenty of people in Hollywood, for some time, who were either themselves gay, tolerant of gays, or downright supportive of gays. There have also been plenty of other books and plays written — during Baum’s time and before! — that have used some kind of gender-changing schtick, apart from Oz. I name you one for free: “As You Like It” by William Shakespeare. I could probably find another half-dozen books/movies/plays from 1900-1930 with similar themes. So I’m gonna go out on a limb and say it doesn’t much matter who made it, or who was in it, or who directed it, etc. My best guess: just like the Beatles, it was in the right place at the right time. One, it’s a children’s film, which has the right undercurrents of alienation and belonging, of inadequacy and acceptance — so for people likely to resonate with the theme, it catches them early. This may be why it continues to catch the attention of such people today. Two, though it was released the 30s, it was re-re-released and re-played on TV during the birth of the television era for millions of boomer-age children. This may be why it attained iconic status, so widely, so quickly. Three, it’s got monkeys. (Hey, I said I was guessing.) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/63 "2006-08-09T02:25:19Z")
[QUOTE=Beware of Doug] I realize now why the Village People had a construction worker, and not a _de_construction worker. [/QUOTE] Single best post of the month. Pithy, yet speaking volumes. Brilliant. 🙂 I’d also heard the Garland/Stonewall connection. I’m surprised to hear it is an urban ( urbane ? ) myth. Got cites that prove it is a myth ? Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/64 "2006-08-09T02:53:18Z")
From p. 260 of the book _Stonewall: The Riots That Sparked the Gay Revolution_, by David Carter: > [@](#): > > Having considered what did cause the riots, it is worth considering another event that is often said to have caused them — the death of Judy Garland. The bibliography — that humble and uniquely useful research tool — gives us four essential pieces of information relevant to the theory that Garland’s death caused the riots: (1) No eyewitness account of the riots written at the time by an identifiably gay person mentions Judy Garland. (2) The only account written in 1969 that suggests Garland’s death contributed to the riots is by a heterosexual who sarcastically proposes the idea to ridicule gay people and the riots. (3) “D.D.'s New York,” the gossip and news column of the _New York Mattachine Newsletter_, discussed the riots once . . . . [W]hat is conspicuous here is that the gossip maven makes the fallout from Stonewall the leading story, places six news items between Garland’s death and the Stonewall Riots, and never connects the two events. . . . (4) _Esquire_ magazine carried an article at the end of 1969 about the emergence of the “New Homosexual” in the riots’ wake that briefly discusses Garland but does not credit her death with inspiring the riots . . . . Although the author notes that Garland’s passing coincided with the riots, he sees this as symbolic, because he sees Garland as emblematic of the “Old Homosexual,” who, already out of touch, became hopelessly passé with the changes the riots precipitated. Rather than inspiring the riots, Garland is seen as symbolically allied with the old order the riots ended and hence as a contrasting or oppositional symbol. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/65 "2006-08-09T03:15:46Z")
Finally some relief! Sorry about before. Here goes a little backup on some of my stuff. I’ll get it though, just gimme a list. I didn’t make this shit up. I was just regurgitating what I’d ran across in my quest. I’m not going to list the exhausting amount of sites that I have read during the course of this debate. I will address some of the questionable points you’ve made with limited cites. Did Gable have Cukor kicked off the set of GWTW? > [@](#): > > However, the director’s reputation as a “woman’s director” (and homosexual) may have gotten him kicked off the set of Gone with the Wind (1939), when star Clark Gable allegedly said, “I won’t be directed by a fairy.” (Another version of this story has Gable’s refusal to work with Cukor motivated by his belief that the director knew of the actor’s own earlier same-sex escapades.) [http://www.glbtq.com/arts/cukor\_g.html](http://www.glbtq.com/arts/cukor_g.html) > [@](#): > > (He dismisses out of hand, for example, longstanding rumors that Gable got George Cukor fired from “Gone With the Wind” because the director knew of a homosexual incident in his past.) > **[Clark Gable: A Biography](https://variety.com/2002/more/reviews/clark-gable-a-biography-1200550704/)** > > He was crowned "the King of Hollywood" in a 1938 poll conducted by columnist Ed Sullivan, and for once the hype was accurate. Whether he was striking sparks with Jean Harlow in "Red Dust" or bringing Claudette Colbert down to earth in "It Happened... > [@](#): > > Selznick used Gable’s complaints as an excuse to get rid of Cukor, whose directorial style he did not like > [@](#): > > “Selznick did fire George,” Katharine Hepburn said, "but I don’t think he really understood it. I think that Gable didn’t like George… > [@](#): > > **According to Cukor,** in the last interview he gave, Gable had more compelling reasons for wanting him off the picture. Cukor knew of Gable’s days as a hustler on the Hollywood gay circuit, when the actor first arrived in LA. [http://www.emanuellevy.com/article.php?articleID=1841](http://www.emanuellevy.com/article.php?articleID=1841) There’s a few cites including the actors words on the subject. Not that this is a great issue regarding Oz just one of many. Let’s try another one: Sexual content in pre 1939 versions of GWTW? > [@](#): > > At Kruel’s command, “Do your stuff, Wizzy!” the Wizard produces, from a huge wicker chest, “The Phantom of the Basket”, a terrifying transvestite whose impromptu dance number does a terrific job of cowing the pre-Rocky Horror Picture Show peasants, despite Prince Kynd’s laughing assertion that it’s all “a load of applesauce”. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Kruel puts the moves on Dorothy with all the subtlety of a frat boy after a keg and a half. This scene of sexual harassment is interrupted by Kynd… > [@](#): > > Hardy’s dead body doubtless lies shattered after his fall from the tower, Semon’s corpse is splattered all over some borscht field, and the feckless **Dorothy is makin’ whoopee with some guy in a uniform whom she just met.** If there is any sunshine offered by this turn of events, it is that hopefully Snowball found out that there were fully loaded machine guns on the biplane, and is currently merrily strafing a Ku Klux Klan rally. _bolding mine_ > **[Wizard of Oz (1925), His Majesty the Scarecrow of Oz (1915) - The Bad Movie...](http://www.stomptokyo.com/badmoviereport/reviews/W/wizard25.html)** > > Movie review. **NOTE: L. Frank Baum played a role in most if not all of these pre '39 Oz films. Either as director, producer or screenwriter. So don’t go there.** Again, there are numerous cites available if you just look. Why do I mention pre-1939 Oz? To establish that Oz was already in Hollywood and that they weren’t the happy colorful fantasy that we all know and love. Maybe that’ll do for now. Be back w/ more soon. 🙂 ~JB ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/66 "2006-08-09T03:54:43Z")
Without having looked at all of your links, i question the value of the ones I did look at, since they are unsourced. One inparticular, I’m sorry to say, you’re completely misreprsenting. > [@your version](#): > > “Selznick did fire George,” Katharine Hepburn said, "but I don’t think he really understood it. I think that Gable didn’t like George.. > [@from your cite](#): > > “Selznick did fire George,” Katharine Hepburn said, "but I don’t think he really understood it. I think that Gable didn’t like George, **because he would be very careful with Vivien Leigh. He would be much more interested in the woman’s character than in the man’s." According to Hepburn, Cukor probably thought of Gable as “just one more character to present himself, whereas Leigh was a new personality. Disappointed, Gable might have thought, ‘What the hell am I going to do? George is fascinated by Vivien Leigh and doesn’t pay any attention to me.’”** This has nothing to do with any alleged homoseual past of Gable’s and everything to do with Gable’s fear that Cukor, having a reputation as a “women’s director,” would favor the women over him in a part that Gable was already insecure about doing. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/67 "2006-08-09T04:19:45Z")
All the quotes posted were accessable by the links I provided. The one Hepburn quote did not address homosexuality. It was meant to show there was animosity between Gable and Cukor. Hepburn simply supports the idea that Gable may have been part of the reason Cukor was terminated. Whatever the reason was is debateable. If you read the previous quotes, Cukor said he knew of Gable’s gay past and that was part of the reason. Gable dismissed the rumor…thereby admitting the rumor existed. But then you’ve got a quote where Gable says he wouldn’t be directed by a fairy. You’ve got both Cukor and Gable quotes admitting at the very least the rumor is true. You should know that whether a rumor is true or not matters little with the public, they’re not going to ignore it either way. Why are you so relunctant to admit that there was some problems between Cukor and Gable regarding their sexual past? But, when you get right down to it. As far as the OP is concerned, the only thing that matters is, was Cukor gay or not? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/68 "2006-08-09T05:06:59Z")
Where is this “last interview Cukor gave”? The article lists no sources for any of the quotes. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/69 "2006-08-09T05:09:18Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] Finally some relief! Sorry about before. Here goes a little backup on some of my stuff. I’ll get it though, just gimme a list. I didn’t make this shit up. I was just regurgitating what I’d ran across in my quest. _bolding mine_ > **[Wizard of Oz (1925), His Majesty the Scarecrow of Oz (1915) - The Bad Movie...](http://www.stomptokyo.com/badmoviereport/reviews/W/wizard25.html)** > > Movie review. **NOTE: L. Frank Baum played a role in most if not all of these pre '39 Oz films. Either as director, producer or screenwriter. So don’t go there.** [/QUOTE] Why should we take your machine-gun cites as anything but opinion, poorly written and even poorer researched, by you and the persons who wrote some of your links. You spend an inordinate amount of time talking about a 1925 film by Semon. You somehow think that Baum had something to do with that movie. Hard to believe, since Baum died in 1919. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/70 "2006-08-09T06:15:46Z")
[QUOTE=panache45] The reason is that she was Judy, and the others weren’t. [/QUOTE] This reminds me of an exchange from _Orgazmo_: “I am Sancho!” “That’s great… but what do you do?” “What do I do? I am Sancho!” “And?” “And there are many Geoffs in the world, and many Toms as well. But I.. am Sancho!” “_And?_” “Are you Sancho? No, you are not Sancho. Neither is Scott Baio Sancho. Frank Gifford, he is not Sancho. But I…” “You… are Sancho!” 😃 Yeah, anyway, I’d never noticed the “Gay” themes in The Wizard of Oz (seeing it more as a perfect encapsulation of 1930s escapism, what with the Depression being on and so forth), but I can’t say it’s something I ever looked for, either. ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/71 "2006-08-09T07:21:25Z")
I can see y’all are going to fight me tooth and nail over every detail. 1)Can all agree that Cukor was gay? AND that he was temporary director on Oz if only for three days. right? 2)Can we also agree that Judy Garland was the lead actress and is an icon in the gay community? Hey, I’m gonna try and get there one step at a time. I will discuss relevance if and when I get some idea of what we agree on. Let’s try it again. > [@](#): > > Throughout the 1910s, traveling road companies brought the The Wizard of Oz to cities and towns across the country. In fact, the play was so successful and so well known that subsequent editions of the The Wonderful Wizard of Oz were retitled The Wizard of Oz to reflect the popularity of the stage production > [@](#): > > Attempts to capture The Wizard of Oz on film date to 1910, when the Selig Polyscope Company created four one-reel silent movies based on the Wizard and other Oz books. In 1914, L. Frank Baum founded his own Hollywood film company. Its five silent features and several shorts based on Baum’s stories were not successful — Baum sold the studio to Universal in 1915. In 1925, yet another silent film version also disappointed at the box-office. [http://rs6.loc.gov/ammem/today/may15.html](http://rs6.loc.gov/ammem/today/may15.html) If you’ll keep up with the links you’ll see that Oz was a huge success and widely popular for years. Much more popular than the 1939 version when it initially came out. **BTW** , I didn’t say Baum did the 1925 version. Just that he played an active role in most of the pre 1939 Oz material. The 1925 references were to simply show the differences from the '39 film. I merely wanted to show evidence that Oz had a large fan base prior to '39. If I can get that point conceded, I will continue and attempt to show how that is relevant. So, do I get that point or not? If so, I will continue. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/72 "2006-08-09T07:48:59Z")
[QUOTE=jimbeam] 2)Can we also agree that Judy Garland was the lead actress and is an icon in the gay community? [/quote] This sounds dangerously like circular logic to me: Judy Garland is (_is_, present tense) because she _was_ (past tense) in _The Wizard of Oz_, which is an iconic film among gays because Judy Garland was in it. Or are you suggesting that Judy Garland, at age 17 in 1939, was a huge icon among gays when the movie was released? ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/73 "2006-08-09T07:52:54Z")
[QUOTE=Fish] This sounds dangerously like circular logic to me: Judy Garland is (_is_, present tense) because she _was_ (past tense) in _The Wizard of Oz_, which is an iconic film among gays because Judy Garland was in it. Or are you suggesting that Judy Garland, at age 17 in 1939, was a huge icon among gays when the movie was released? [/QUOTE] No, I just want concession that she IS. We’ll get to the at what point did she become later. okay? ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/74 "2006-08-09T08:03:38Z")
Okay… let’s try another point. I claim that the word _Gay_ was used in the early 1900’s as reference to a persons sexual practice and/or preferences. > [@](#): > > The use of the term gay, as it relates to homosexuality, arises from an extension of the sexualised connotation of “carefree and uninhibited”, implying a willingness to disregard conventional or respectable sexual mores. Such usage is documented as early as the 1920s > The word started to acquire sexual connotations in the late 17th century, being used with meaning “addicted to pleasures and dissipations”. This was by extension from the primary meaning of “carefree”: implying “uninhibited by moral constraints”. By the late nineteenth century the term “gay life” was a well-established euphemism for prostitution and other forms of extramarital sexual behaviour that were perceived as immoral. > > A cartoon from Punch magazine from 1857 illustrating the use of “gay” as a euphemism for prostitution. > > **But** _bolding mine_ > > By the mid-century “gay” was well-established as an antonym for “straight” (respectable sexual behaviour), and to refer to the lifestyles of unmarried and or unattached people. Other connotations of frivolousness and showiness in dress (“gay attire”) led to association with camp and effeminacy. This range of connotation probably affected the gradual movement of the term towards its current dominant meaning, which was at first confined to subcultures. The subcultural usage started to become mainstream in the 1960s, when gay became the term predominantly preferred by homosexual men to describe themselves. > **[Gay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay)** > > Gay is a term that primarily refers to a homosexual person or the trait of being homosexual. The term originally meant "carefree", "cheerful', or "bright and showy". While scant usage referring to male homosexuality dates to the late 19th century, that meaning became increasingly common by the mid-20th century. In modern English, gay has come to be used as an adjective, and as a noun, referring to the community, practices and cultures associated with homosexuality. In the 1960s, gay became S... **Okay** according to Wiki.. the term gay was used early on to refer to sexual promiscuity and then later in reference to homosexuality. Then we get to the middle part of the 1900’ and the definition changes due to social norms. Not again until the 60’ or 70’s does it reacquire sexual connotations. Point conceded? Yes or no? ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/75 "2006-08-09T08:13:45Z")
Now if there are no objections I’m gonna claim these points on agreement. 1. Cukor was a temporary director in the 1939 version of TWOO and he was a homosexual. 2. Judy Garland was the lead actress of Oz and she IS currently considered a gay icon. 3. The Wizard of Oz was a Success before the 1939 film. 4. The term “gay” was used in the past in reference to a person’s sexuality. If we can agree thus far let me know. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/76 "2006-08-09T08:28:24Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Um…yes? And it’s “Cukor,” as in George Cukor. And while the stories about his supposedly tricking with Gable while Gable was being gay for pay have been around for decades, I’ve never seen a reputable source for it. [/QUOTE] [hijack]I can’t help wondering what kind of “reputable” source there _could_ be for such a thing. A receipt signed by Gable himself? For example, plenty of people have insisted that James Dean engaged in a certain amount of gay sex while at the same time plenty of others just as strongly deny it. What kind of “reputable” source should we expect to confirm or disconfirm these claims? I can’t think of anything other than rigorously examined explicit photographs! ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/77 "2006-08-09T08:54:27Z")
**Fish’s** reply in [Post 62](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7659895&postcount=62) seems as good as anyone’s to me. I’m a gay man, but from my own experience and that of my gay friends, I have only the most meagre clue as to why TWoO has been singled out, at least as seen in the media, to have some special resonance with gay males. I’ve never actually _met_ anyone who fits the media’s stereotype in this regard. Personally, I still like it just because I liked it as a little kid and it’s a good, fun story with a nice message, nothing more. So I think that TWoO is homosexually iconic only to a subset (and probably a small one) of gay males, and primarily because it was held to be iconic to the much more closeted and cliquish Old Homosexuality that an earlier poster mentioned. In my opinion, the rest is just plain old stereotyping and media misrepresentation and perpetuation of obsolete mythology, just like the old saw about gays liking show tunes (another thing that no gay man I know actually likes). ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/78 "2006-08-09T09:07:35Z")
There’s a gay Canadian cartoonist named Maurice Vellekoop who drew a story about this specifically, in an early issue of\*\* Drawn and Quarterly\*\*. If I recall correctly, he said the movie was perfect, that gay culture has a preoccupation with perfection, and that it was of a piece with **Swan Lake** in this regard. Not the clearest explanation, but he gave it an honest shot. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/79 "2006-08-09T10:30:37Z")
[QUOTE=Krokodil] There’s a gay Canadian cartoonist named Maurice Vellekoop who drew a story about this specifically, in an early issue of\*\* Drawn and Quarterly\*\*. If I recall correctly, he said the movie was perfect, that gay culture has a preoccupation with perfection, and that it was of a piece with **Swan Lake** in this regard. Not the clearest explanation, but he gave it an honest shot. [/QUOTE] Doesn’t that only push the question back a step? On what possible basis could it be said that “gay culture has a preoccupation with perfection”? And even if it does, why should _that_ be the case any more than the idea that TWoO is iconic to a small subset of gay males for no very compelling reason at all? ---
**Author:** ![jimbeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/858c86/32.png) [@jimbeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbeam)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2006, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666/80 "2006-08-09T11:10:08Z")
One more point before I knock off for awhile. Y’all hash it out and decide if I’ve made any points to which you can agree. I promise to tie it all up nice and pretty for you later. 🙂 Let’s try to establish whether a gay culture existed in film prior to 1939 Oz. [http://www.musicals101.com/gay4.htm](http://www.musicals101.com/gay4.htm) "As silent film became a major industry, there were numerous intentional depictions of homosexual stereotypes, usually for comic effect – effeminate cowboys, etc. However, few film goers of the early 20th Century were aware of the tremendous contribution gay talent made to early Hollywood. " "Top silent stars Ramon Novarro and William Haines had legions of female fans who never suspected that they were homosexuals – well, the public didn’t know, but damn near everyone in the film industry did. " "Homosexual stereotypes had been common in silent films. It is perhaps appropriate that the first depiction of a blatantly homosexual character in a sound film was in the first all-sound movie musical, MGM’s The Broadway Melody (1929). " "There were many other examples of obvious homosexual characters in early musical films. For example, the first screen version of the stage hit The Desert Song (1929) " “Heterosexual actor Bert Lahr minces and camps as The Cowardly Lion in The Wizard of Oz (MGM 1939), but since his limp-wristed character shows no attraction to other males, code administrators viewed his sexuality as a non-issue. While we’re on the subject of Oz .”. . "Why did The Wizard of Oz become a lasting focal point of gay culture? Consider the core plot: a misunderstood child yearns to escape a boring middle-American upbringing and learns that one must face life with brains, heart and courage – a blueprint that carries special resonance for many gays and lesbians. " **Just read the article** I think it establishes the fact that there was a strong gay culture at work in Hollywood in the early days. concede? disagree? So what’s that? 1. Cukor was a temporary director in the 1939 version of TWOO and he was a homosexual. 2. Judy Garland was the lead actress of Oz and she IS currently considered a gay icon. 3. The Wizard of Oz was a Success before the 1939 film. 4. The term “gay” was used in the past in reference to a person’s sexuality 5. There was a large Gay culture at work in Hollywood from the start. see ya later~JB [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-movie-the-wizard-of-oz-stereotypically-associated-with-gay-male-culture/367666.md?page=5)