# Why is the peace demonstration getting so much publicity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2003, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531 "2003-01-18T20:42:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/41 "2003-01-19T20:59:58Z")
\*originally said by Mark Twain \*(thanks, **Sailor** ): > [@](#): > > Merely a politician’s trick–a high-sounding phrase, a blood-stirring phrase which turned their uncritical heads: Our Country, right or wrong! An empty phrase, a silly phrase. It was shouted by every newspaper, it was thundered from the pulpit, the Superintendent of Public Instruction placarded it in every schoolhouse in the land, the War Department inscribed it upon the flag. And every man who failed to shout it or who was silent, was proclaimed a traitor–none but those others were patriots. To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, “Our Country, right or wrong,” and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation? If only they had quoted the full text of the Carl Schurz update of Stephen Decatur’s toast: > [@](#): > > Our country: When right to be kept right, _when wrong to be put right_, but our country, right or wrong! The italicized bit is what the demonstrations are about, if that isn’t clear yet. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/42 "2003-01-19T21:20:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*David Simmons: > > ## quote: > > ## It seems to me that in order to make one of our Fearless Leader’s preemptive strikes you need more than a “‘persuasive’ case that [Hussein] isn’t cooperating.” Shouldn’t the goal of our government should be to maintain peace where it exists and try to get peace where it doesn’t? > > No. That was Neville Chamberlain’s job. \*\* Ah, the sound bite ploy. It sounds as though you regard all attempts to keep peace are appeasement. What a shallow point of view. What would Hussein gain by attacking the US? I don’t remember him ever striking anyone who had the capacity to strike back, with the possible exception of Iran. I think MAD. or in this case AD, with Iraq being on the receiving end, will keep Hussein from using against the US, anything he might have until the whole thing can be cooled down. And that can be done as soon as we get an adult in charge of foreign policy. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/43 "2003-01-19T21:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > **The peace movement is _growing_ within the United States and the rest of the world. I have seen in my adulthood how powerful these protests can become…** Of course, people should have the right to peaceably assemble and demonstrate against (or for) just about any damn thing they want to. But, don’t confuse to ability to protest with protests actually being effective… What the heck has a protest (or series of protests) ever accomplished? Did they cut short the decade+ of the Vietnam War? Did they stop the Gulf War '91? Did they stop the bombing of Yugoslavia? What tangible goal have anti-war protests ever accomplished? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/44 "2003-01-19T21:54:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > > I think MAD. or in this case AD, with Iraq being on the receiving end, will keep Hussein from using against the US, anything he might have until the whole thing can be cooled down. He couldn’t attack the US directly, but Israel isn’t nearly safe, and the threat of attacking there would be deterrence enough. There were a number of Scuds sent there the last time, remember? If he _can_ “send his fire to destroy half of Israel”, that is, and if he can’t, he can’t plausibly and significantly attack any other US allies either, and there goes the _casus belli._ > [@](#): > > And that can be done as soon as we get an adult in charge of foreign policy. \*\* Powell is clearly trying, under circumstances that would force a less-duty-driven person to resign, and may be having enough success. The UN-authority approach in the face of the unilateralist war tom-tomming seems like his doing rather than Rumsfeld’s, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Scruloose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e68b1a/32.png) [@Scruloose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scruloose)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/45 "2003-01-20T01:07:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SweetLucy \* > **If you’re talking to me- no, I don’t hate America! I think Dubya and Co. are the traitors in this situation- picking a fight with another country (Iraq) whose bark is much worse than its bite; taking it upon himself to declare war w/o consulting Congress or the advice of seasoned military and diplomatic experts. And what happened to the war on terrorism? It’s as if Osama had never existed now.It’s because I love my country that I don’t just shut up and say “baa” at this time.** Aside from your first and last sentence, this paragraph is completely false. First of all, no war declaration has been made. Second, it most certainly was taken to Congress. They had a big vote on it and everything. I’m pretty sure it was in the papers. Third, do you honestly think that GW hasn’t consulted the military and diplomats? That statement is just plain silly. Fourth, the war on terrorism is alive and well. Just because you aren’t paying attention, or the media isn’t covering it ad nauseam, doesn’t mean it’s not happening. There are people all over the world actively engaged in that campaign. We still have folks getting attacked in Afghanistan. > [@](#): > > It’s because I love my country that I don’t just shut up and say “baa” at this time. I agree with that completely. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/46 "2003-01-20T01:30:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*He couldn’t attack the US directly, but Israel isn’t nearly safe, and the threat of attacking there would be deterrence enough. There were a number of Scuds sent there the last time, remember? If he _can_ “send his fire to destroy half of Israel”, that is, and if he can’t, he can’t plausibly and significantly attack any other US allies either, and there goes the _casus belli._ > \*\* Israel isn’t “safe” from a lot of countries, Syria as a example. The missiles used on Israel during the Gulf war seem more like attempts to provoke them into attacking and igniting a reaction from the rest of the Middle East. Their use then doesn’t look germane to the case now. Biological agents, which Hussein presumeably had, weren’t used and that was during an actual war. As I read the news, the least likely thing the Israelis need to worry about is an attack from Iraq. I’m not sure about this, but I think we include an attack on Israel by Iraq as an attack on us. And as an extraneous aside, the Israel situation also seems to me an example of the failure of military solutions in case of this kind of small-unit terroist or guerrilla action… I’m afraid that Powell has decided that he will be the “good soldier” and follow orders. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/47 "2003-01-20T01:33:09Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* \*\* > [@](#): > > I am emphatically in favor of a situation in which S. Hussein gives full cooperation to the U.N. inspectors. \*\* This is wishful thinking. Over the past 11 years, Saddam Hussein has _never_ given full cooperation to the U.N. inspectors. Even now, with US military poised for attack, he’s _still_ not giving full cooperation. **errata** , I agree that the size of the turnout helps determine how newsworthy. I would not give much credence to an estimate by the organizers. Clearly there was a large turnout, but compare it with the Detroit Auto Show, where [800,000 people _paid_ to attend](http://www.detnews.com/2003/metro/0301/19/d01-63544.htm). Kind of puts the Washington figures in perspective, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/48 "2003-01-20T01:39:06Z")
There was even a [demonstration in Spokane](http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news-story.asp?date=011903&ID=s1290553) (free registration required): > [@](#): > > Hundreds of people protested the prospect of U.S. military action in Iraq on Saturday, chanting, cheering and singing antiwar ballads in Riverfront Park. > … > Rally organizers estimated as many as 1,000 people showed up during the afternoon as part of a coordinated day of demonstrations across the country and abroad. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/49 "2003-01-20T01:43:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\*Ah, the sound bite ploy. \*\* You set 'em up, I’ll knock 'em down. > [@](#): > > It sounds as though you regard all attempts to keep peace are appeasement. What a shallow point of view. It sounds are if grammar yours needing help. Anyway, it’s nowhere near as shallow as projecting arguments onto others. > [@](#): > > What would Hussein gain by attacking the US? Revenge? > [@](#): > > I don’t remember him ever striking anyone who had the capacity to strike back, with the possible exception of Iran. Your not recalling it, hardly means that it didn’t happen. Iran was more or less Iraq’s equal in strength, so I don’t know by what possible logic you consider this only a “possible” exception. And, you seem to have forgotten Israel. Plus, the U.S. He’s taken potshots at our planes in the no-fly zone. That’s four. Three of the countries he’s attacked were his equal or better militarily. So much for that argument. > [@](#): > > \*\*I think MAD. or in this case AD, with Iraq being on the receiving end, will keep Hussein from using against the US, anything he might have until the whole thing can be cooled down. And that can be done as soon as we get an adult in charge of foreign policy. \*\* Hopefully one with more acumen than you’ve demonstrated. We are not the only people Iraq could attack, and we’d also have to catch him. In a terrorist type attack it would be hard to prove his involvement. Anyway, this is all besides the point. It’s not simply about his capacity as an aggressor. That has been demonstrated. The last time we had to clean up after this schoolyard bully, there were conditions to be met to avoid his being expelled. He has not met those. If we allow him to stay without meeting them, our negotions meant nothing, but more importantly or negotiations will mean nothing going forward. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/50 "2003-01-20T01:45:16Z")
tomndeb: > [@](#): > > Cleveler cheap shot, if historically inaccurate. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/51 "2003-01-20T01:56:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\* > Anyway, it’s nowhere near as shallow as projecting arguments onto others._\* Ok, I’ll bite. If there was a point to your equating Neville Chamberlin’s actions to the duty of a government to try for peace as the first line of defense, what was it? You never made a point that I could see, only a smart-ass quip. Of course I don’t have your vast amount of worldly experience, so enlighten me. And, by the way, Neville Chamberlin was the guy who took Britain into WWII, not because of an attack on Britain but because of an attack on another country. You blame him for not standing up to Hitler in the case of Czechoslovakia, _et al_. Did we? Did we rush in to help Britain and France try to defend Poland? If so I must have missed it. As far as your claims about Hussein’s potential for aggression, we also have considerable and haven’t been all that bashful about it. Arguments based upon what someone might do just aren’t sufficient to send the country into a war. At least not in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/52 "2003-01-20T02:05:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*tomndeb: > > ## quote: > > ## Cleveler cheap shot, if historically inaccurate. > > Thanks. \*\* Oh and by the way, **Scylla** , how come you didn’t criticise\*\* tomndeb’s\*\* spelling the way you did my grammar over an “are” that should have been “as?” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/53 "2003-01-20T02:09:11Z")
David: > [@](#): > > I’ll bite. If there was a point to your equating Neville Chamberlin’s actions to the duty of a government to try for peace as the first line of defense, what was it? You never made a point that I could see, only a smart-ass quip. Of course I don’t have your vast amount of worldly experience, so enlighten me. It spoils all the fun to explain smart-ass quips. If you’re whooshed, so be it. > [@](#): > > As far as your claims about Hussein’s potential for aggression, we also have considerable and haven’t been all that bashful about it. Bad bad argument. I notice that when people make these they often pretend you said something you didn’t, and repsond to that alternate argument, rather than the one given. Lots of countries have the potential, as do lots of leaders. Any country with an army has potential to attack. What I said was “capacity,” which hopefully implied that his demonstrated willingness to do so. Any dog can potentially bite. They are not the same as those that do. > [@](#): > > Arguments based upon what someone might do just aren’t sufficient to send the country into a war. At least not in my opinion. And again, you are responding to the argument that you would have liked me to have made rather than the one that I did make. His potential is not the major issue at hand. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/54 "2003-01-20T02:16:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*David: > > It spoils all the fun to explain smart-ass quips. If you’re whooshed, so be it. > > \*\* So you didn’t have a point, or you don’t want to tell us what it was? OK, “capacity” then. Same point in spite of your evasions. But then I guess I forgot all of our incursions into other countries are in the name of freedom. The whole justification by GW is that Hussein has the power, therefore he might. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/55 "2003-01-20T02:18:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by David Simmons \* > **Oh and by the way, Scylla, how come you didn’t criticise** tomndeb’s_\* spelling the way you did my grammar over an “are” that should have been “as?” \*\* Since his post was accurate and intelligent, I considered it to be simply a typo rather than indicative of sloppy thought. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/56 "2003-01-20T02:33:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\*So you didn’t have a point, or you don’t want to tell us what it was? This is just getting silly. As I said, I’m content to let you be whooshed. > [@](#): > > OK, “capacity” then. Same point in spite of your evasions. But then I guess I forgot all of our incursions into other countries are in the name of freedom. Evasions? Why do you have to lie and pretend I’m doing something I’m not? What about this don’t you understand? He fought Iran, bombed Israel, attacked our planes, and has been commiting genocide against his own people. I don’t see how you could equate that with our current or recent foreign policy. It’s disingenuous in the extreme. > [@](#): > > The whole justification by GW is that Hussein has the power, therefore he might. \*\* Again, you’re either ignorant or you’re simply pretending. Go check the text of Bush’s speech to the U.N. As Bush said, and everybody else in the world seems to understand, He’s in violation of the treaties and resolutions that were the conditions to allowing him to remain in power the last time he attacked somebody. That, combined with his demonstrated capacity and willingness is our “justification,” if you want to call it that, although it’s more like a necessity in my eyes that we enforce these resolutions. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/57 "2003-01-20T03:01:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > **This is just getting silly. As I said, I’m content to let you be whooshed.** Speaking from the sidelines - I’m rather whooshed, too. I take it you brought up Chamberlain with some sort of purpose in mind, and I for one would really like to know what your point was - this is GD, after all. If someone throws out a one-liner, refuse to elaborate and then complain that people aren’t arguing against the points he made, wouldn’t it be more suitable for him to elaborate the points instead of complaining about the opponents’ incredible density ? Y’know, in the name of fighting ignorance. Unless you are saying that the Chamberlain comment was just a quip and shouldn’t be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/58 "2003-01-20T03:38:13Z")
I guess it depends on what you consider a quip. Obviously the situations are dissimilar, yet Neville remains an object lesson on the dangers of suing for peace. Whether or not England had a reason for doing so is entirely beside the point. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/59 "2003-01-20T03:46:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*This is just getting silly. As I said, I’m content to let you be whooshed. > \*\* My post was that a duty of government is to preserve peace where it exists and promote it where it doesn’t. Your post dragged in Neville Chamberlain with what appears to be a clear comparison to the appeasement of 65 years ago. When challanged you claim it is just a joke. That is either evasion or intellectual cowardice. Take your pick. Everybody in the world understood GW’s speech at the UN and action was taken on the basis of it. Hardly anyone in the rest of the world and only a part of the US understand his subsequent rhetoric. Since you only respond with _ad hominum_ crap I’ll say goodbye to you now. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531/60 "2003-01-20T04:03:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*That, combined with his demonstrated capacity and willingness is our “justification,” if you want to call it that, although it’s more like a necessity in my eyes that we enforce these resolutions. \*\* Reasonable enough, up to a point. And that point is where “we enforce these resolutions”. They are not our resolutions, They are the resolutions of the United Nations. Until such time as the United Nations confers some extraordinary status on the US, it is not the perogative of the US to enforce UN resolutions, any more than it is the perogative of Tennessee to declare war on Canada. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-peace-demonstration-getting-so-much-publicity/149531.md?page=4)