# Why is the Pope against using condoms to help control AIDS in Africa? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020 "2009-05-19T22:39:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/21 "2009-05-20T13:36:46Z")
This issue is rife with misleading statistics. First, there are two numbers that get thrown around. Aids prevalance rates and New infection rates. THe prevalence rate (number of people infected) is affected mostly by treatment. When no treatment is available, the number goes down, because people are dying. With treatment available, it goes up, because people are living. This number gets thrown around a lot when discussing the recent increases of AIDS in, for example, Uganda. It’s used as an example of Bush’s or the Pope’s policies failing, when in truth, it just a reflection of the US providing more antiretroviral drugs. If you actually look _new infection_ rates. You will see different trends. In Uganda, the new infection rate correlates far more closely with the abstinence/faithfulness rates than with condom usage. In the 90s, the new infection rate increased slightly, despite massive increases in condom usage. The abstinence/faithfulness rate, however, decreased slightly. No cites. This information is all over on Google and Wikipedia if you care to look it up. Condoms are really just a band aid. The reduce the risk, but they do nothing to solve the problem. If you are worried about people bleeding to death, having band-aids around is great, but you need to teach people to modify their behavior so that they aren’t getting cut all the time if you want to actually _solve_ the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/22 "2009-05-20T15:32:51Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > No it does NOT follow. What follows is we find an alternate approach that would be more successful in improving the rate of condom use. After 25 years of trying an unsuccessful method it’s not time to imporve it, it’s time to relaize it doesn’t work. For whatever reason it doesnt and won’t. Time for plan B. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/23 "2009-05-20T15:47:08Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Time for plan B. Now [that’s](http://www.planb.ca/) really not going to go down too well with most Catholics. Dan Savage has a great anecdote about a guy who has sex with a horse or miniature pony. Dan spoke to him on the phone for a radio show and the guy was, shockingly, a bit odd. I think he married the horse, too, or at least had a commitment ceremony. Anyway, at the end of the interview Dan goes, ‘I almost forgot to ask – is it a male or female horse?’ and there’s a pause. The man finally answers, indignantly, ‘A male horse? I am not a _homosexual_!’ Everyone’s got a personal code, however odd to outsiders and however contradictory. (Of course, when they start applying it to people they are ostensibly trying to help, then it’s time to get angry.) ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/24 "2009-05-20T16:05:56Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Sorry, you’re fact-free. If those dumb horny promiscuous Africans you decribe are so obviously dumb, horny, and promiscuous it follows that condoms, which require planning and techinuqe, are not the solution. I don’t think English is your first language, because you obviously neither know the meaning of “fact-free” nor consider your own cite to be factual, because I directly quoted YOUR source. I don’t think the Africans in question are dumb or promiscuous. Perhaps you should invest in a good dictionary. They don’t use condoms with their regular intimate partners. Obviously, if they realized the risks, they would change their behavior. Education, not withholding condoms, is the answer. Also, it’s pretty silly to claim that the Pope is against condom use because they haven’t been effective in Africa due to African culture. They are, empirically, provably effective if used correctly. The Pope is advocating that no one use condoms at all, including in the places it has worked. Try some facts next time. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/25 "2009-05-20T16:28:44Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > After 25 years of trying an unsuccessful method it’s not time to imporve it, it’s time to relaize it doesn’t work. For whatever reason it doesnt and won’t. > Time for plan B. And how long have various churches (and other religions) been exhorting people to not have sex or be monogamous? How well is that working out? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/26 "2009-05-20T17:51:56Z")
Here is the truth, and no, I cannot tell you where I got this information, for reasons which will be obvious. The church is purposely using Africa as an evolutionary testbed to produce an HIV resistant human. More condoms means less people/test-units, and less contact with the virus. For this to work, there has to me as many people as possible, and as many of them exposed to the virus as possible. Once evolutionary pressures result in an HIV resistant person, that person will have his or her genes harvested. The pertinent genes will then be spliced into all the Vatican elite, who are at an increased risk of the virus because of the secret blood-drinking and sodomy rites they must perform. You did not hear this from me. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/27 "2009-05-20T18:08:01Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > And how long have various churches (and other religions) been exhorting people to not have sex or be monogamous? How well is that working out? Moral objections have no plan B, if they had they would not be moral objections, they’d simply be pratical sayings. A scientific approach to a problem can be evaluated for results and then changed to planB. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/28 "2009-05-20T20:58:50Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Once evolutionary pressures result in an HIV resistant person, that person will have his or her genes harvested. The pertinent genes will then be spliced into all the Vatican elite, who are at an increased risk of the virus because of the secret blood-drinking and sodomy rites they must perform. Let the harvesting [begin](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080901205622.htm)! (Or do they have to be virgins?) ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/29 "2009-05-20T21:35:19Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Sex is for procreation. The enjoyment is a side benefit. If you don’t want to procreate, you don’t have sex. Period. The Catholic Church says leave the possibility open for fertility, not that every sex act is for procreation. The enjoyment that bonds a husband and wife is just as important. ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/30 "2009-05-21T09:58:28Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Here is the truth, and no, I cannot tell you where I got this information, for reasons which will be obvious. > > The church is purposely using Africa as an evolutionary testbed to produce an HIV resistant human. More condoms means less people/test-units, and less contact with the virus. For this to work, there has to me as many people as possible, and as many of them exposed to the virus as possible. > > Once evolutionary pressures result in an HIV resistant person, that person will have his or her genes harvested. The pertinent genes will then be spliced into all the Vatican elite, who are at an increased risk of the virus because of the secret blood-drinking and sodomy rites they must perform. > > You did not hear this from me. :mad: They stole my plan for curing cancer! ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/31 "2009-05-21T10:29:31Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > However, the Church as said since the beginning that condoms are not the solution and now they have not only a theological reason but facts. The facts that can be concluded from the evidence on hand are: [ul] [li]When condoms are used, HIV transmission rates drop[/li][li]There are behavior patterns in many places in Africa that preclude condom use for sociological reasons[/li][/ul] Neither of those facts support a conclusion that **condoms** do not work to stop the spread of disease. Neither of these support the conclusion that condom distribution is ineffective. It is not effective enough on its own, but it is not ineffective. And there is certainly no evidence whatsoever to validate the church’s contention that condom use is **harmful** , while there is ~25 years of science to say, where HIV is concerned, just the _opposite_ is true. Stating otherwise, as the writer of that _editorial_ has, is a willful and **political** misstatement of fact. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/32 "2009-05-21T10:48:22Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In 1968, Pope Paul VI released the encyclical _Humanae Vitae_, which laid out the Catholic Church’s position on birth control. It argues that all methods of artifical contraception are morally wrong. Here’s Wikipedia’s summary: > > [Humanae vitae - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanae_Vitae) > > In short, he argues that it’s the divine plan that sexual intercourse is an act of mutual love between a married man and woman that allows God to generate new life. Therefore, any act that tries to seperate sexuality from the mutual love between husband and wife or denies the generative possibility is immoral, and that includes all kinds of artificial contraception, including condoms. Was the Pope speaking \*ex cathedra \*(i.e., invoking his doctrinal infallibility) in this encyclical? Not being sarcastic - I honestly want to know. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/33 "2009-05-21T11:47:46Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > If you are not able to have safe sex, you are supposed to have no sex. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand about this viewpoint. Sex is for procreation. The enjoyment is a side benefit. If you don’t want to procreate, you don’t have sex. Period. > > Realistic? Probably not. But it’s not an uncomplicated stance to understand, and it’s hardly an amoral concept. Abstinence. As much a choice as any other. If sex was for procreation then why do infertile couples, and women past their child bearing ages desire sex? The Church decided sex was just for procreation, not a God. It is also an expression of love for some people for some a selfish reason for pleasure but the fact that a person can pass on a desease to another is something to prevent using a condom can also prevent a couple from having the need for an abortion. A hammer can do both harm or good depending on how it is used. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/34 "2009-05-21T11:51:11Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > In 1968, Pope Paul VI released the encyclical _Humanae Vitae_, which laid out the Catholic Church’s position on birth control. It argues that all methods of artifical contraception are morally wrong. Here’s Wikipedia’s summary: > > [Humanae vitae - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanae_Vitae) > > In short, he argues that it’s the divine plan that sexual intercourse is an act of mutual love between a married man and woman that allows God to generate new life. Therefore, any act that tries to seperate sexuality from the mutual love between husband and wife or denies the generative possibility is immoral, and that includes all kinds of artificial contraception, including condoms. The other side of that argument is why does the Church use devices to keep some one on life support when God wants them to die? That can be called artificial, surgery is artificial, medicine can be called artificial if that argument would hold water! ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/35 "2009-05-21T14:17:46Z")
> [@stuthehistoryguy](#): > > Was the Pope speaking \*ex cathedra \*(i.e., invoking his doctrinal infallibility) in this encyclical? > > Not being sarcastic - I honestly want to know. I believe only the doctrines on the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were given ex cathedra. ---
**Author:** ![NoJustice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecb155/32.png) [@NoJustice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NoJustice)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/36 "2009-05-23T00:42:17Z")
Is there any evidence that what the pope says about condoms actually has any impact on the pandemic in Africa? I mean if people were influenced so much by the position of the church, they’d all be either abstinent or in monogamous relationships wouldn’t they be? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/37 "2009-05-23T01:32:47Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Here is the truth, and no, I cannot tell you where I got this information, for reasons which will be obvious. > > The church is purposely using Africa as an evolutionary testbed to produce an HIV resistant human. More condoms means less people/test-units, and less contact with the virus. For this to work, there has to me as many people as possible, and as many of them exposed to the virus as possible. > > Once evolutionary pressures result in an HIV resistant person, that person will have his or her genes harvested. The pertinent genes will then be spliced into all the Vatican elite, who are at an increased risk of the virus because of the secret blood-drinking and sodomy rites they must perform. > > You did not hear this from me. Dan Brown? Is that you? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020/38 "2009-05-23T12:06:24Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Here is the truth, and no, I cannot tell you where I got this information, for reasons which will be obvious. > > The church is purposely using Africa as an evolutionary testbed to produce an HIV resistant human. More condoms means less people/test-units, and less contact with the virus. For this to work, there has to me as many people as possible, and as many of them exposed to the virus as possible. > > Once evolutionary pressures result in an HIV resistant person, that person will have his or her genes harvested. The pertinent genes will then be spliced into all the Vatican elite, who are at an increased risk of the virus because of the secret blood-drinking and sodomy rites they must perform. > > You did not hear this from me. I do not believe that is the truth. The RCC church gets what it calls no birth control from the Old Testament where Onan spills his seed. At least that is what a priest told me. I think it is a silly reason, but the church does have the right to make rules for it’s followers. But IMHO it doesn’t make sense because they contradict them selves in many other ways. The church doesn’t allow birth control even to married couples except to have sex only when a woman cannot concieve which is about as abnormal as any birth control method. If people didn’t have sex then it is true aids would not be spread as fast. For a person with no sex drive that would work but not for the norm. The sad part that isn’t brought up as much as having sex with tiny babies, believing that it wll cure aids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-is-the-pope-against-using-condoms-to-help-control-aids-in-africa/497020.md?page=1)